[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[OrcinusDrake]

I'd prefer something a bit smaller, but it's warcraft so meh. I've been wanting a flail for some time in wow. Swords just don't feel like they pack enough punch versus a boss which requires 20 guys to beat into submission.

[sexybeast]

I guess the real reason we have a speed boost which is tied to our mount is cause WE HAVE NO FUCKING SHINS LEFT!

[Deleted]

I want to be able to pull aggro off a DPS who can't wait more than 3 seconds but also lose aggro if I'm not doing anything for more than 3 sec. I hate the people who would only press two buttons in Wrath and whine about how easy tanking was while I was doing my full rotation. The only time I lost aggro then was to a fully geared Heroic ICC Frost DK. It was Forge of Souls and he had to throttle back a bit just to not pull off of me. At the beginning of Cata I'd throw AS and before I could get a second hit off, ranged DPS pulled from me. They were not heroic ICC geared.

And yet I guarantee you that the natural result of the part I've italicized, i.e a competent co-tank pulling off you in a matter of seconds because your threat generation is pitiful compared to his, and you thus wiping the raid over and over again on swap-sensitive fights, is not something you'd like.

Quite frankly to me it seems you like you're too busy buying into your own WotLK nostalgia to give the current state of tanking and the possible alternatives serious thought; never mind the fact that your objection to many mechanics that are currently the staple of interesting tank gameplay seems to be "I'm not good enough to do it properly", and rather than wanting to improve yourself, you'd rather see these mechanics outright removed so that you don't have to deal with them.

You'll excuse me for struggling to take the opinion of someone who'd rather have a challenge removed for him than face up to it and better himself seriously.

[Templar 331]

You'll excuse me for struggling to take the opinion of someone who'd rather have a challenge removed for him than face up to it and better himself seriously.

"If your spec becomes harder to play, just get better" is what you're saying. Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better? Why should game play be harder over time? Different yes, but harder? Why should game play be changed to satisfy masochists? If you want more of a challenge then go do Mythic. Leave the mechanics of the class easy enough for the rest of us not to screw up.

I remember reading in a blue post a while back that the reason they changed pally tanking is to separate the great, good, and bad tanks of the spec. Why should they do this? A bad tank hurts everyone so why make it harder on the good ones just to make the great ones feel better?

[Deleted]

"If your spec becomes harder to play, just get better" is what you're saying. Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better? Why should game play be harder over time? Different yes, but harder? Why should game play be changed to satisfy masochists? If you want more of a challenge then go do Mythic. Leave the mechanics of the class easy enough for the rest of us not to screw up.

I remember reading in a blue post a while back that the reason they changed pally tanking is to separate the great, good, and bad tanks of the spec. Why should they do this? A bad tank hurts everyone so why make it harder on the good ones just to make the great ones feel better?

Because without actual meaningful, deep class mechanics, good players are bored out of their minds no matter how tightly tuned content is.

You're exclusively doing content that's deliberately tuned to a point where it doesn't matter what you do at all - why does your apparent aversion to people being better at the game than you entitle you to ask for the wholesale destruction of class depth?

[Wimzer]

"If your spec becomes harder to play, just get better" is what you're saying. Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better? Why should game play be harder over time? Different yes, but harder? Why should game play be changed to satisfy masochists? If you want more of a challenge then go do Mythic. Leave the mechanics of the class easy enough for the rest of us not to screw up.

I remember reading in a blue post a while back that the reason they changed pally tanking is to separate the great, good, and bad tanks of the spec. Why should they do this? A bad tank hurts everyone so why make it harder on the good ones just to make the great ones feel better?

I've tried to type out three different paragraphs to this, but I can't. I don't understand your mentality that the game should be a snoozefest because you don't want to learn. I don't understand why you think good players shouldn't be seperated from bad.

How is HoPo making it harder on good tanks? You aren't a good tank because you can stand in one spot and hit your keys as fast as you can. You're a good tank because you can use all your abilities to help your survive. Hopo separated the good from the bad. It's not making it harder on the good ones at all, it gave them something to adjust to.

[Deleted]

"If your spec becomes harder to play, just get better" is what you're saying. Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better? Why should game play be harder over time? Different yes, but harder? Why should game play be changed to satisfy masochists? If you want more of a challenge then go do Mythic. Leave the mechanics of the class easy enough for the rest of us not to screw up.

I remember reading in a blue post a while back that the reason they changed pally tanking is to separate the great, good, and bad tanks of the spec. Why should they do this? A bad tank hurts everyone so why make it harder on the good ones just to make the great ones feel better?

Ok so, a lot of what you've argued before I can give you. Something I do a few times a week is take an inexperienced tank, usually a Paladin, into HFC normal or heroic and help them "learn to tank." I'm not blind to the level of skill that the more casual players sustain. Some players actually find it difficult to manage their resources to ensure they have 3 HoPo available for Killrog's Shred Armor, and in no way am I judging them or insulting them; that is the level at which they play. There should be content that they find challenging and engaging to do; Normal and LFR fills that very well in my opinion. Do bear in mind that these players, which includes you from what I can gather, also include the following fine examples of play:

HFC normal, Socrethar. I'm helping out a friend who got into a pug, since they lost a tank and I was bored. My co-tank is 671, has no enchants, barely casts any HoPo generators, and is specced into talents that are straight up worse for PvE content. Our DPS is too low to phase Soc before the Reverb blows kill me, so I attempt to explain to this tank that all he needs to do is to taunt the boss after the 3rd cast, so I can reset my first rotation on them. He fails to do this, seemingly failing to comprehend the idea of tank swapping at all. New plan: I will go without Fury on and throttle my DPS down so he can take the first two slams, and I can solo the rest. On the pull, he simply doesn't pull the boss, letting him melee the poor Warrior for three hits before I take over again. I eventually die to a billion stacks, and I get a whisper from the tank: "Sorry bro these healers are shit they fucking suck nothing we can do."

This is purely for context, but these are the players you're playing the game with. That is the skill level you're playing at, so you have to keep in mind that a lot of your arguments, to tanks at a higher level of play, sound exactly like the tank in the above situation. That was absolutely disgusting levels of delusion from a tank, one that assured me he "tanked in wrath and never had these problems." The fact of the matter is that he is appallingly bad at tanking, nevermind playing paladin.

I can give you leeway for asking, or suggesting, a system that allows casual tanks on the low end of the skill spectrum to still play the game, while at the same time allowing the higher end tanks to continue pushing performance as they currently are. In my mind, players of this skill level have LFR to do and it solves that dilemma. What I cannot give you leeway for, or hold back on, is the following:

Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better?

This is unforgivable, and not just in-game. If you're not willing to put in the time to improve your life, to improve at anything, then you are entitled to exactly what you put in: nothing. You've done nothing, you deserve nothing, and you should get nothing. Where would we be today if we organize the world to function according to what you desire? Reward for zero effort, stagnation, decay, extinction. We evolve in everything we do, constantly. Your ability and drive to improve, to adapt, is what makes you part of the human race. It's why we are where we are today. Those without the ability and drive to improve, to adapt, to evolve, are useless to humanity. They don't add anything, they simply consume resources, often without even contributing to the sustainability of the resources they require to survive. They're a net loss to the overall system. To tone this down back to tanking related issues:

You were good in Wrath. You reached that point once, nothing is stopping you from doing the same. Now, as the game has advanced, it requires you to improve to keep up. You're unwilling to do that, because you were "good enough once upon a time." And that's apparently enough for you. Why should anything challenge you after you've overcome one challenge, after all? Billions of years of evolution had to deal with that, but not you. No, you want an eternal reward for being adequate at one point in your life.

Why should game play be harder over time? Different yes, but harder? Why should game play be changed to satisfy masochists? If you want more of a challenge then go do Mythic. Leave the mechanics of the class easy enough for the rest of us not to screw up.

The game should evolve over time to keep it interesting. The playerbase, for the most part (current quote notwithstanding) improves over time and will continue to do so. Given enough time, with an unchanging rate of play and difficulty, every player will master the highest level of the game. That is not a sustainable model, not in any iteration of a game that produces new content that differ from the previous set in a meaningful way. The game is not being changed, nor was changed, to satisfy "masochists." It was changed to allow for players to improve and face more demanding challenges. Now, we are doing Mythic, and it is somewhat challenging. However, your last point is invalid: You can play like a clown and survive on heroic. You can play with a clown controlling half of your keys and you the other half and you can survive on normal. Tanking is not rocket science at that level of play, it is really, absurdly, simple. Why on earth should the content we, as Mythic players (a fair amount of us involved in progression), be made so that players such as yourself, with zero motivation to improve or adapt, can access it? What we ask for you to do this content is to get on the level it requires, and that is more than reasonable. What you are asking is for all of us to have nothing to do because you want to do it with zero effort.

I remember reading in a blue post a while back that the reason they changed pally tanking is to separate the great, good, and bad tanks of the spec. Why should they do this? A bad tank hurts everyone so why make it harder on the good ones just to make the great ones feel better?

Why? I don't know, probably the same reason there's a gold, silver and bronze medallion in the Olympics. Let me reaffirm: You are not a good tank. Right now, you're at the very low end level of bad. The game is not punishing good tanks to make great ones feel better, it's punishing bad ones for failing at incredibly simple tasks, as you are now. I don't even know why you are arguing these points. If you are incapable of the play required in LFR and normal, you're never going to see Mythic. What we do has no relevance to you at all. And if you can't play at that level, I have serious doubts about you being able to play at all during Wrath.

I gave you constructive input, and some of your replies were fairly valid. I can find no way to give you any reply other than the one I have, and that can be summed up very briefly: Get better or get out. If you can't lift a 5kg weight, stop complaining that you were once able to lift 3kg so this 5kg should weight less since you've already lifted 3kg before. I'm starting to feel like I'm giving a benefits abuser an earful.

EDIT: To restate, so you're aware of it: I would have no issues with you saying "Hey, I'm a casual player, how do we make tanking accessible to a player such as myself while maintaining the complexity at the highest level of play?" What I take massive issue with is your no-effort-all-reward approach. I have half a mind to just delete this post tbh, it adds literally nothing to the discussion, but I've already gone to the effort of typing it.

[Deleted]

Because without actual meaningful, deep class mechanics, good players are bored out of their minds no matter how tightly tuned content is.

You're exclusively doing content that's deliberately tuned to a point where it doesn't matter what you do at all - why does your apparent aversion to people being better at the game than you entitle you to ask for the wholesale destruction of class depth?

I have to agree with PTS. I feel like I am playin prot well enough without seraphim, that I am now learning seraphim to keep myself from gettin bored! I say this losely, but I feel I have mastered prot paladin (minus seraphim) and I welcome a new challenge. As PTS said, just because you don't want to learn, Templar, does not mean the class should be made simple. I welcome every challenge blizz throws at me!

[Deleted]

I have to agree with PTS. I feel like I am playin prot well enough without seraphim, that I am now learning seraphim to keep myself from gettin bored! I say this losely, but I feel I have mastered prot paladin (minus seraphim) and I welcome a new challenge. As PTS said, just because you don't want to learn, Templar, does not mean the class should be made simple. I welcome every challenge blizz throws at me!

Yeah, I agree. Man, I still love timing Seraphim. Even if I could play Prot half asleep now.

[sexybeast]

If you want more of a challenge then go do Mythic

umm... The vast majority of us already do, and it's not hard at all now, farm, outside of parts of valhari and tanking doomcaller and archi in p1 it's not hard at all anymore.

I've only killed archi mythic 6 maybe 7 times now, and farm is soooo boring, even playing sera and gaming LoV. Your argument is that the spec should be dumbed down, but what the fuck would leave us players who do have to farm for months to do? I would seriously /slitwrists if I was faced with another 5/6 months of an even more dumbed down version of pala

[celinamuna]

Btw someone find a video of parry animations with our new flail.

[Deleted]

Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing.

Not to be rude, but this sounds like a you problem to be fair. You're still bashing your head against this wall, trying to convince a thread full of 13/13M tanks that tanking should be made easy and mundane. Tanking in WoD is the easiest it's ever been imo. Trash is linear and makes sense, bosses have patterns and make sense. Every now and again you move or taunt. No DPS to worry about ripping aggro.

If you're a bad tank, you're a bad tank - simple as. No amount of class simplicity will change that. If you're a shitter who simply says "Don't wanna get gud sorry" then sorry, go play Hunter.

Leave the mechanics of the class easy enough for the rest of us not to screw up.

Top kek


EDIT: To round this up, I'm pretty sure most of us here understand what you're saying and the points your putting across make sense from your perspective. What you're proposing is just completely daft for the health and progression of the game.

[marinos]

Btw someone find a video of parry animations with our new flail.

You no longer dodge/parry if you are using the flail skin, instead you gain the Hold your Ground passive which increases your block chance by X% ammount. World of Diablocraft.

[Deleted]

You no longer dodge/parry if you are using the flail skin, instead you gain the Hold your Ground passive which increases your block chance by X% ammount. World of Diablocraft.

Not quite. Due to being constantly bonked on the head by your rogue flail, you've sustained heavy brain damage and are immune to damage.

[Deleted]

Not quite. Due to being constantly bonked on the head by your rogue flail, you've sustained heavy brain damage and are immune to damage.

I can assure you. Blunt Trauma does not work this way!! Trust me, I know!!111

/killjoy

I doubt they will change those animations. You just have to parry with the Shaft/Chain. We don't want them to cut a raid-tier now do we?

Edit: Wow, I didnt notice how I fucked up "blunt". GJ, brain.

[Lysozyme]

I thought that's what Ignore Pain was about, for Warriors, Veilyn? :P


I quite agree with the majority here in that making a spec simple just so that people who don't want to try to play the spec can do so is absurd. Screw you for trying to ruin the game for people who actually want to play it.

[OrcinusDrake]

. Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better?

... Huh? I don't mean this insultingly but I'm having a hard time trying to grasp this statement. I play games to get better, that's the point for me. This is especially the case in a progression based game or a multi-player game of which WoW is both. Now I've played at low levels - I did normal HFC progression weeks into the tier - but I didn't raid lead and kind of distanced myself from the situation when we were chain wiping on easy bosses with personal responsibility so maybe I just haven't talked to the right people, but everyone I've gotten to know in game has had a desire to get better, to progress, so I have to think that the majority of people do the same.

If you were a good defender in your mates football team when your were 18, you can't except to come back at 25 without practicing and be just as effective in the field.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to play a game where you don't improve, I recommend snakes and ladders.

[Deleted]

"If your spec becomes harder to play, just get better" is what you're saying. Sorry, I'm not here to get better. I'm here to enjoy myself while playing. I was good in Wrath, why should I get better? Why should game play be harder over time?

Jesus, the entitlement. Sorry buddy, but you're not entitled to a baby's first tank style design. I mean, let's not lose sight of the fact that you're complaining about Holy Power here, like it creates some ultra hard DDR style rotation.

Yeah, if they alter your spec and it becomes more complex then get better. What else do you want people to say?

[Fusoya]

Now AM is on demand instead of having a separate resource to be built up which is a welcome change for me.

Most successful troll, 2016.

I never considered HoPo management to be a meaningful contributor to the skillcap of Prot Paladin, but this guy is making a strident argument that are retards out there that couldn't figure it out.

[Deleted]

Most successful troll, 2016.

I never considered HoPo management to be a meaningful contributor to the skillcap of Prot Paladin, but this guy is making a strident argument that are retards out there that couldn't figure it out.

I doubt that it's truly a case of not being able to figure it out so much as it's an unwillingness to do so. Change is scary, "WotLK was the peak of the game" bullshit, etc.

There's simply no way a person constitutionally incapable of getting their head around HoPo management wouldn't have met some unfortunate premature end long before adulthood - they'd have walked out into a busy intersection or inadvertently stuck their head in a wood chipper long before their 18th birthday.