[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Ferbian]

I'd recommend finding a good seraphim weak aura that tracks the cooldown and duration well. I googled it right at the start of WoD and surprisingly, the first video result is what I went with and I'm still using, although I modified it a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuIwJsWv01c here it is.
I don't really find it any more difficult to keep up a seraphim rotation than to reactively mitigate with Sotr etc, especially when you can track Seraphim effectively but it might help to do a bit of Highmaul to begin with, since the tank tactics are almost nonexistent in comparison to brf.

I got a decent one available yeah, I'm not even running Seraphim yet cause I'm still working on having a solid uptime of SotR on every boss and having as minimal waste of HoPo as possible. It's coming along nicely and I'm not flopping over on bosses anymore except a stray death on Kromog, but even that stuff is something I'm still working heavily on. My weakaura is definitely helping me along though. Just this whole muscle memory is still a distant stranger in terms of my rotation. Guess it'll come once I can lay off focus in terms of the encounter, where the encounters tactic becomes muscle memory.

My UI setup for reference: http://i.imgur.com/DfKBmET.jpg - The big SS icon alternates with SotR whenever I'm on 5 HoPo or during HA whenever I just have 3 HoPo. Also got timers popping up on each side in decent sized icons for DP and GOAK / AD.

[vokey]

I got a decent one available yeah, I'm not even running Seraphim yet cause I'm still working on having a solid uptime of SotR on every boss and having as minimal waste of HoPo as possible. It's coming along nicely and I'm not flopping over on bosses anymore except a stray death on Kromog, but even that stuff is something I'm still working heavily on. My weakaura is definitely helping me along though. Just this whole muscle memory is still a distant stranger in terms of my rotation. Guess it'll come once I can lay off focus in terms of the encounter, where the encounters tactic becomes muscle memory.

My UI setup for reference: http://i.imgur.com/DfKBmET.jpg - The big SS icon alternates with SotR whenever I'm on 5 HoPo or during HA whenever I just have 3 HoPo. Also got timers popping up on each side in decent sized icons for DP and GOAK / AD.

I don't think you need to worry about the muscle memory part to be honest. In my opinion the Seraphim "rotation" shouldn't be muscle memory, you need to be aware of which 15 second spurs you need the buff up. It's not the most effective way to run Sera IMO to just pop it whenever it's on cd to get as close to a 50% uptime as you can. You don't want the uptime to drop far below 40% though, because then you'd benefit more from other talents usually.

[Ferbian]

I don't think you need to worry about the muscle memory part to be honest. In my opinion the Seraphim "rotation" shouldn't be muscle memory, you need to be aware of which 15 second spurs you need the buff up. It's not the most effective way to run Sera IMO to just pop it whenever it's on cd to get as close to a 50% uptime as you can. You don't want the uptime to drop far below 40% though, because then you'd benefit more from other talents usually.

Oh yeah for sure. The uptime percentage and all is something I'm well aware of, hard to forget with the amount of time I spend on this site by now. I'm just focusing more on getting a hang of everything more optimally before taking another step towards something like Seraphim where the uptime is much more crucial not having HS to aid you anywhere.

[Vergilius]

Anyone taking abnormally hard hits from BH smash in p1/p2? Like 400-450k+ (this is HC so ~2x from average)? Happens only occasionally, I think 4 times total over 25+ pulls tonight, but it happened to both me and my warr cotank (2 times each). Anyone got any idea why?

And before anyone asks, no we didn't have slag mine debuff.

[Piwielle]

It's a ~650k hit before armor and whatnot, so you just had no mitigation.

[Vergilius]

It's a ~650k hit before armor and whatnot, so you just had no mitigation.

650k hit minus 50% armor reduction = ~325k minus ~30% from ShotR = about 200k which is what it normally hits for. Even if I didn't have ShotR up, 480k hit is almost 150k more than it should hit for with solely armor reduction.

[Deleted]

650k hit minus 50% armor reduction = ~325k minus ~30% from ShotR = about 200k which is what it normally hits for. Even if I didn't have ShotR up, 480k hit is almost 150k more than it should hit for with solely armor reduction.

I haven't actually field-tested it but it could very well be one of those pesky spells like Rapid Fire and Aim in SoO that is flagged as physical but gives exactly zero fucks about your armour.

[Deleted]

Almost no spells like that work with armour these days.

[Jellospally]

Anyone taking abnormally hard hits from BH smash in p1/p2? Like 400-450k+ (this is HC so ~2x from average)? Happens only occasionally, I think 4 times total over 25+ pulls tonight, but it happened to both me and my warr cotank (2 times each). Anyone got any idea why?

And before anyone asks, no we didn't have slag mine debuff.

You just didn't have mitigation up.

With DP + SoR at around 40%ish it hits for 280k or so. Based on random old logs I saw when we used to do heroic still.

[OrcsRLame]

How exactly does one go about doing that? I hear everybody talking about muscle memory every now and then, and while I can definitely see it in terms of boss tactics and all, and it coming natural, I've never ever been able to 'muscle memory' my way through a rotation or maintaining an almost perfect uptime. It's something I need to actively keep an eye at.

You really just have to practice. Vokey is right though, it's not all about muscle memory as there are times when you want to delay Seraphim by a second or two to have it up when you're actually tanking. There are times when you want as close to a 50% uptime as possible though, and some parts of the rotation should always be muscle memory, like when to hit CS over Judgement. The parts that aren't muscle memory are reacting to procs and boss abilities. For that, you want addons that are clear and easy to see that you're comfortable using.

Practice, discipline and easy to read information is how you get good at something.

[Deleted]

You really just have to practice. Vokey is right though, it's not all about muscle memory as there are times when you want to delay Seraphim by a second or two to have it up when you're actually tanking. There are times when you want as close to a 50% uptime as possible though, and some parts of the rotation should always be muscle memory, like when to hit CS over Judgement. The parts that aren't muscle memory are reacting to procs and boss abilities. For that, you want addons that are clear and easy to see that you're comfortable using.

Practice, discipline and easy to read information is how you get good at something.

That's totally right. Proccs are another thing though. Depending on your level of play you can even anticipate the procc and be ready, say for an Avenger's Shield, to use it. You know that it may only procc when you hit CS or the boss swings at you. So the "flow" of the procc becomes kind of natural as well.
Usually it takes me like two months to get down the rotation to be muscle memory, and that's with a lot of playing the specc. If I have already played that specc before it's gonna be a lot faster because I just have to retrieve the memory instead of building it up all together.

[Ferbian]

You really just have to practice. Vokey is right though, it's not all about muscle memory as there are times when you want to delay Seraphim by a second or two to have it up when you're actually tanking. There are times when you want as close to a 50% uptime as possible though, and some parts of the rotation should always be muscle memory, like when to hit CS over Judgement. The parts that aren't muscle memory are reacting to procs and boss abilities. For that, you want addons that are clear and easy to see that you're comfortable using.

Practice, discipline and easy to read information is how you get good at something.

Aye the CS over judgment rotation is becoming pretty solid memory for me currently, during my logs most (roughly 90-95%) of all my boss fights has a solid CS:J ratio, so that's always something. Makes sense that practice will be something to come into consideration, haven't exactly been taking for an exceptional amount of time (Roughly 2-3 weeks at best... I think? I still don't fully outgear my guilds two other tanks so optimally for progress bosses they're the go to. If only both of them didn't have such a shitty connection and we had to rely on a DPS with a tank off spec who's nowhere near geared for BH heroic...)

[MerinPally]

Hello again, a while since I posted. I think back then I was moaning about having to probably play mage just to balance out my guilds raid composition as we really didn't need another ret, and they already had 2 tanks. Reckon you can help me quick?

Seems I've become a little bit famous for bitching (sometimes about the tanking) in this guild and on previous nights I've mentioned "Give me one raid as a tank and I'll show you the difference a good tank makes" and last night completely broke me so I'm taking a break from raiding. I want to know if I'm overreacting. Maybe a month ago I had to explain the stat priority to one of our tanks as he had no idea.

Here's some logs from last night, we did our first night of heroic progress and we got 2 bosses down which was nice. The warrior tank is just an offspec (who didn't have bonus armour gear...) so don't worry about him.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

I noticed a 25% SHOTR uptime. I cried. Today I went to the dummy and managed 66% using the same talent setup.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=1

Granted on the boss it'll be different but that gap seemed too large. Before the pull I noticed he was using Sanctified Wrath so I made him use Divine Purpose as it's superior for damage reduction and our tanks were just going squish and I had no faith in correct Holy Avenger usage as I'm regularly heard "I just can't get used to Seraphim" so they use Holy Shield near exclusively (my first warning sign - at least with tier gear it's not as much of a problem anymore like it was in Highmaul).

I'm of the opinion that our tanks are underperforming, there's some other logs on there from previous nights. Wondering if anyone can confirm or deny, I've not entered BRF as a tank yet and I'm concerned I'm overreacting because I just have high standards. My concerns are - poor SHOTR uptime, poor rotation and as a result of both those the dps is low. I have questions over positioning but you can't tell that from the logs.

If anyone can take a look and let me know how much merit there is behind what I'm complaining about then thanks a lot. Whether I've been broken by genuine problems that aren't being addressed or whether stress from outside the game is getting to me and I'm just being a nitpicking dickhead.

[Deleted]

Scopion is awful. Like abso-fucking-lutely disgracefully awful. He has a CPM of FORTY. He has almost as much character-sheet haste as I do, and yet manages 30 fewer casts every minute. There are literally times where he simply stands around doing NOTHING for 5-6 seconds at a stretch.

He needs to be told to stop casually going AFK in the middle of fights and not pressing anything. That's his biggest issue. He literally has almost half as many casts as he should have. Just compare his log:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...casts&source=2

To my log that's 6 seconds longer on a character with roughly 400 more haste:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...asts&source=11

He has FORTY-THREE fewer casts of CS than I do. FORTY. THREE.

[MerinPally]

Hmm, thanks. I do question in hindsight whether last night on Gruul he was purposely not casting anything when the other tank was holding the boss for reasons I think he mentioned threat (why he didn't just turn off righteous fury I don't know, I had to make a macro for that back in Highmaul (first time 8 years of tanking I needed such a macro) the 1 time I tanked for this guild because despite being 10 ilvls lower I was outaggroing). Even then, the gap between his and yours seems huge. My own CPM on my paladin is up at 63 and that's without any buffs.

I suspected something like that might be said. I don't have any other heroic kills to link but I have our other 9 normal boss kills from the same reset, involving our other usual tank. Could I be really cheeky and ask you to take a brief look at that as well? I might let the officers know some of the comments and if I'm honest with you, I'm more concerned about our other tank than I am Scop. Which given that feedback must mean... I don't even want to know.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jRZCKkarV13pvfP8

Thank you for your comments and your links, I'll take a good look through them.

[Ferbian]

Whats the ideal amount of unbuffed / self buffed haste (without EMPS) to have? Currently I'm on like 10%, which I'm sure is most likely too little, partially due to having enchanted mastery, and partially due to simply suffering the RNGesus of a whole hella lot of crit and mastery stats gear. Also how much am I exactly losing out by being around 10% haste? Will re-enchanting my rings, neck and cloak be a worthwhile difference?

I noticed off your logs Solaire, that even I am having awful amounts of casts on some fights, not critical but definitely nothing by comparison to yours, I'm guessing that comes down in parts due to Seraphim / EMPS over with its haste buff, but also due to my own haste being so low?

[Sumatran]

Howdy folks.

Could y'all do me a huge favor and check out my prot pally? I am new to pally tanking (haven't done it since Wrath) but I have tanked this xpac with my druid and blood dk.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated (too much crit, not enough haste, enchant X instead of Y, make sure to use X on cooldown, hold off on using Y until X happens, etc). I know there is icy-veins but they are sometimes incorrect, and I would really value the opinions of the great pally tanks on this forum.

I really want to get into raiding with this guy. I love the pally sets, the way tanking feels, and Avengers Shield is my favorite ability in the game.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%ACno/advanced

Thanks again tons!

[MerinPally]

Whats the ideal amount of unbuffed / self buffed haste (without EMPS) to have? Currently I'm on like 10%, which I'm sure is most likely too little, partially due to having enchanted mastery, and partially due to simply suffering the RNGesus of a whole hella lot of crit and mastery stats gear. Also how much am I exactly losing out by being around 10% haste? Will re-enchanting my rings, neck and cloak be a worthwhile difference?

I noticed off your logs Solaire, that even I am having awful amounts of casts on some fights, not critical but definitely nothing by comparison to yours, I'm guessing that comes down in parts due to Seraphim / EMPS over with its haste buff, but also due to my own haste being so low?

More. You want 50% haste as that's when things bottom out with regards to being able to generate holy power faster and more efficiently. My reasoning may be off, I'm a bit out of the loop, but 50% is the number you want. I think for Seraphim and Holy Shield you go for that 50 but then for Empower Seals you go for 50-whatever value you get from EmpS and then get mastery, but you won't hit 50% yet so just get haste. You won't play EmpS every fight either so.... just get haste.

Howdy folks.

Could y'all do me a huge favor and check out my prot pally? I am new to pally tanking (haven't done it since Wrath) but I have tanked this xpac with my druid and blood dk.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated (too much crit, not enough haste, enchant X instead of Y, make sure to use X on cooldown, hold off on using Y until X happens, etc). I know there is icy-veins but they are sometimes incorrect, and I would really value the opinions of the great pally tanks on this forum.

I really want to get into raiding with this guy. I love the pally sets, the way tanking feels, and Avengers Shield is my favorite ability in the game.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%ACno/advanced

Thanks again tons!

Ring enchants missing but you've been going for haste elsewhere so that seems fine, I'm sure you know what you're doing - likely replace those rings soon anyway so not really worth it. You've only got 2 crafted items (shield doesn't count anymore) so can grab another. Pursuit of Justice is the weakest talent in the tier so I'd advise against that. Make sure you learn how to play with Holy Avenger and Seraphim even if you don't use them but you look to be heading in the right direction so I wouldn't worry. You'll want Glyph of Final Wrath instead of the Holy Wrath one you currently have but yeah looks good.

[Deleted]

Hmm, thanks. I do question in hindsight whether last night on Gruul he was purposely not casting anything when the other tank was holding the boss for reasons I think he mentioned threat (why he didn't just turn off righteous fury I don't know, I had to make a macro for that back in Highmaul (first time 8 years of tanking I needed such a macro) the 1 time I tanked for this guild because despite being 10 ilvls lower I was outaggroing). Even then, the gap between his and yours seems huge. My own CPM on my paladin is up at 63 and that's without any buffs.

I suspected something like that might be said. I don't have any other heroic kills to link but I have our other 9 normal boss kills from the same reset, involving our other usual tank. Could I be really cheeky and ask you to take a brief look at that as well? I might let the officers know some of the comments and if I'm honest with you, I'm more concerned about our other tank than I am Scop. Which given that feedback must mean... I don't even want to know.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jRZCKkarV13pvfP8

Thank you for your comments and your links, I'll take a good look through them.

14% Seraphim uptime. I basically closed the log and shut down my PC right there. 14% Seraphim uptime on a 10-minute fight is what Belmorn managed.

Both of your paladin tanks need to stop whatever the fuck it is they're doing right now and start over COMPLETELY. Like, they need to spend 4 hours a day on target dummies just getting used to actually fucking using their abilities. They are relentlessly awful. I realize I have high standards, being a Mythic raider primarily, but 14% Seraphim uptime is something I'd instantly kick someone from my Normal pug for.

[Venz]

Howdy folks.

Could y'all do me a huge favor and check out my prot pally? I am new to pally tanking (haven't done it since Wrath) but I have tanked this xpac with my druid and blood dk.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated (too much crit, not enough haste, enchant X instead of Y, make sure to use X on cooldown, hold off on using Y until X happens, etc). I know there is icy-veins but they are sometimes incorrect, and I would really value the opinions of the great pally tanks on this forum.

I really want to get into raiding with this guy. I love the pally sets, the way tanking feels, and Avengers Shield is my favorite ability in the game.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%ACno/advanced

Thanks again tons!

couple pretty minor points but:
pursuit of justice is generally lackluster in comparison to it's on-demand counterparts, Long arm for more frequent/shorter bursts of movement (think gruul, beastlord for juking rends, etc), speed of light for everything else. i'd also recommend dropping the holy wrath glyph you have in your first major slot for glyph of final wrath. only time id ever consider running glyph of holy wrath would be for koragh/imp adds but other abilities can do it better, such as shadowfury.

lastly, id swap out one of your minors for glyph of focused wrath. it's better to do a large chunk of damage to 1 priority target than 3 damage to all your surrounding mobs and wandering critters.