1. #41
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Paladin-Bundle
    Has my EmpS WAs and a few others, however i keep them as a bundle so you might want to delete some things that might be extra for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Currently looking at theck's detailed analysis (file:///C:/Users/Bitflux/Downloads/talents_L100.html)
    I'm retarded, https://www.dropbox.com/s/h6eg9f9vao...L100.html?dl=0 was the link i was suppose to post.

    Anyway, using http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/11/12...ds-of-draenor/
    We can see that that EmpS with focus on S results in the lowest TMI and second highest dps potential/

    One of his key points was :
    The benefit is supposedly that you can do this all within a single encounter, without changing specs. But I think you’re probably actually better off with Holy Shield in that situation. Switching to “survival mode” costs you a large chunk of DPS compared to either of the other talents, but while in “dps mode” you’re only about 1000 DPS ahead of Holy Shield with Seal of Truth active. Unless you spend about 2/3 of the fight in “dps mode” and only 1/3 in “survival mode,” you’ll actually produce more DPS and have better survivability by just taking Holy Shield and swapping from Seal of Insight to Seal of Truth based on what you care about at the moment.

    In other words… Holy Shield does seal twisting better than the “seal twisting” talent does.
    However the issue is that currently Sims drastically over-estimates HS dps performance, and in reality the difference will be a lot larger (depending on the fight)

  2. #42
    Field Marshal Trep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Paladin-Bundle
    Has my EmpS WAs and a few others, however i keep them as a bundle so you might want to delete some things that might be extra for you.



    I'm retarded, https://www.dropbox.com/s/h6eg9f9vao...L100.html?dl=0 was the link i was suppose to post.

    Anyway, using http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/11/12...ds-of-draenor/
    We can see that that EmpS with focus on S results in the lowest TMI and second highest dps potential/

    One of his key points was :


    However the issue is that currently Sims drastically over-estimates HS dps performance, and in reality the difference will be a lot larger (depending on the fight)
    I am a little slow so bear with me please. I had already read this portion from Thecks blog and is why I went HS to begin with. Not because of it's simplicity but because it was said to be better than our other two options in both terms of DPS and Survival. But if I understand what you are saying then it is that this is only true if HS actually did damage on physical attacks and not just magical? Otherwise you have more control with higher dps output and survival from EmpS than HS?

  3. #43
    Field Marshal Rayocell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    However the issue is that currently Sims drastically over-estimates HS dps performance, and in reality the difference will be a lot larger (depending on the fight)
    Is this because HS is bugged? If it were not bugged (aka: if HS did what it indicates in the tooltip), Theck's analysis would be correct, right?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Trep View Post
    I am a little slow so bear with me please. I had already read this portion from Thecks blog and is why I went HS to begin with. Not because of it's simplicity but because it was said to be better than our other two options in both terms of DPS and Survival. But if I understand what you are saying then it is that this is only true if HS actually did damage on physical attacks and not just magical? Otherwise you have more control with higher dps output and survival from EmpS than HS?
    Currently you have more DPS output and lower TMI from EmpS than HS. *IF* HS starts to work from auto attacks the damage point will go up significantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayocell View Post
    Is this because HS is bugged? If it were not bugged (aka: if HS did what it indicates in the tooltip), Theck's analysis would be correct, right?
    Again, not sure if it's bugged, i always assumed poor tool-tip. And it would be generally correct. However the issue with different stats improving some talents and decreasing the effect of others.

    In my example, using a high crit build will increase the effectiveness of DP + HA, while slightly decreasing SW (or keeping it the same). It would also boost seraph/EmpS while making HS slightly worse.

    Theck's simulation profiles are heavy on mastery which is naturally biased towards HS (Higher Block % --> more HS dmg procs), while say crit or haste build would improve the other two.

  5. #45
    I'm getting creamed in CMs (have well over ilvl 630, so not really "undergeared" although not 100% ideal stats). Are we supposed to be this shitty at keeping ourselves alive? Seems like DKs, and even Monks, are loling their way through it.

    Did those buffs they were talking about just as beta ended ever actually materialise? I feel really underpowered for a tank that's supposed to survive by healing the damage back up, when nothing actually heals for shit.
    Last edited by Smrtby; 2014-11-17 at 10:13 PM.

  6. #46
    Gave EmpS another chance since Lazel swears by it and I was very impressed. Massive damage in heroics for AoE. ST didn't seem dramatically different from HS though but definitely higher. Survival I don't know since there's so much variance at this point with me having no clue with the encounters and having separate healers.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I'm getting creamed in CMs (have well over ilvl 630, so not really "undergeared" although not 100% ideal stats). Are we supposed to be this shitty at keeping ourselves alive? Seems like DKs, and even Monks, are loling their way through it.

    Did those buffs they were talking about just as beta ended ever actually materialise? I feel really underpowered for a tank that's supposed to survive by healing the damage back up, when nothing actually heals for shit.
    Prot paladins heal for nothing these days, majority will come from sacred shield. I did it in 620 gear and I cant say we was close to getting gold, or silver... or a medal

  8. #48
    Stood in the Fire Zabuzan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Emerald Nightmare
    Posts
    480
    Have any of you other guys been in CMs yet? I too felt pretty squishy, though far from optimised and with an undergeared healer. Self healing is certainly shafted as baseline, though with EmpS that may not be the case as I haven't tried it out yet.

    I've done 2 clears of SM Burial grounds, one with HS and one with Seraphim. The HS clear felt a lot better, taking a lot less damage (no logs to show unfortunately). Seraphim is obviously god mode, doing huge DPS on any aoe situations, but in CMs we were doing just to complete for gear there was a lot of cc and minimal AOE - the 15 second downtime period was brutal... and a bit awkward to time exactly right given how long it takes to regen HoPo at the moment and how much incoming damage there was in the downtime period anyway.

    Also did UBRS CM yesterday evening and with Seraphim I felt like I was wearing paper and rarely got the chance to use it because of the beating I was taking in the build up.

    Haven't tried EmpS at all yet in CMs, will try tonight in Skyreach!

    Seraphim with Sanc Wrath and GoFinal Wrath helps contribute to some pretty insane burst, even single target. For 5-man Heroics I run with it exclusively and looking at Lazel's logs am putting out relatively similar numbers throughout.

    Seal of Insight doesn't feel useful anymore, there is just no visible benefit from using it but for CMs having that extra 1% health tick that ended up saving me from the huge 60% boss melee before the healer could get a cast in was a bit of a life saver.

    I'm in a BA > Mastery > Versatility > Crit > MS > Haste prio atm... but to be honest most of my pieces are Mastery/Crit, with the rings/neck/cloak mastery+BA. Still using the heirloom weapon and shield, str+vers pvp trinket that are sub 630 atm, so still a bit of work to be done. Looking forward to a more optimised build though and need to do some testing on EmpS and see how that affects the stat prio I'll be going for in the long run. The haste buff EmpS gives certainly does sound like a pretty huge buff, HoPo generation is slow going atm.

    On the plus side, the removal of haste from my gear hasn't affected the feel of Prot anywhere near as much as I'd envisaged and at current gear levels I'm beating the DPS for any AoE situation and even some single target fights if I can open with 5 HoPo for Seraphim and the boss isn't up for too long!

    Enjoying WOD so far for sure Plenty further experimenting and testing to be done though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, if anyone makes an EmpS WA, please share - I won't be home until pretty late tonight and would be great to be able to rock up to Skyreach CM with auras already in place! <3

  9. #49
    Not being able to switch talents during the run really kills us. I'd say it has a far bigger gameplay implication for us that it does any other class since it ties so heavily into our mitigation and holy-power generation. Seraphim was near un-useable without SW, but you don't really want SW on trash which means you can't use Seraphim either because if you take it to get more boss DPS and another CD, you're getting wrecked on trash.

    They either really need to nerf DKs (they seem OP as fuck for CMs thanks to infinite cools, defile's constant 10% DR, and massive self-healing keeping them at full life) or buff the other tanks. I was getting max SS ticks of ~28k. On mobs that SWING for 60k. That's just ridiculous. I was using EmpS in the end and it didn't seem to make any difference to how squishy I felt (the heal should really be scaling with resolve, because it's just too pathetic to even look at right now), thinking we might need to stack as much block and parry as possible to even have a chance at surviving the burst.

    All in all, really not enjoyable to be in a constant state of almost-dead while the other group is saying how easy it is to keep the DK alive. I thought the whole god-damn point of nerfing tanks was so that we weren't looking after ourselves? Seems DKs didn't get the memo with their 40-50% of overall healing done.
    Last edited by Smrtby; 2014-11-18 at 12:21 PM.

  10. #50
    Field Marshal
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Illidan - EU
    Posts
    90
    I first started with HS for some heroics, just to learn encounters without being bothered by a modified rotation.
    Although the lack of haste is not as bad as we thought it would be, there were moments I was waiting for abilities to come back up with nothing to do.
    Switched to EmpS for an other series of heroics following what was discussed here. To me it feels a lot better. Dps went up significantly and there are no downtimes in the rotation anymore. Just have to get a bit more used with the rotation and tweack a WA for it.
    Moussaka - Paladin Protection
    Ragedoll -Warrior Protection
    Quote Originally Posted by Velkhan View Post
    Those warriors... blizzard should rename "shout" spells to "cry" they are so good at that.

  11. #51
    does anyone know whats better for gemming? is mastery best? got an empty slot on my heroic chest and dont know what to put in it

  12. #52
    Titan Daelak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    12,638
    Quote Originally Posted by Moussaka View Post
    I first started with HS for some heroics, just to learn encounters without being bothered by a modified rotation.
    Although the lack of haste is not as bad as we thought it would be, there were moments I was waiting for abilities to come back up with nothing to do.
    Switched to EmpS for an other series of heroics following what was discussed here. To me it feels a lot better. Dps went up significantly and there are no downtimes in the rotation anymore. Just have to get a bit more used with the rotation and tweack a WA for it.
    It sounds like HS is the starting talent for prot pallies due to the increase in mitigation alone, but I haven't tried it. I went through H Auchindoun last night with seraphim and it felt OK, definitely missing the haste though, will try EmpS tonight. It seems as though at our current gear levels we should keep SotR up as much as possible...

  13. #53
    Field Marshal Rayocell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Crit
    Only if you're running EmpS or Seraphim, right? If you're running HS, you should be stacking Mastery.

  14. #54
    So, while running EmpS I assume it's ideal to keep all 3 up as much as possible? Or should we only be trying to have 2 rolling at all times?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Bzly View Post
    So, while running EmpS I assume it's ideal to keep all 3 up as much as possible? Or should we only be trying to have 2 rolling at all times?
    Truth/Right for dmg
    Survival - idk, i feel like SoI buff (and soi itself) is currently too weak.

  16. #56
    But dude ur tank why u care about dps? Holy Shield is best choise, passive so you can focus more on other things and also it give u realy good def bonus and some dps, for me Empowered Seals is useless for tanks. Just done today Skyreach CM and i had best realm timer.

  17. #57
    I do feel like HS and full block will be the way to go for CMs. You'll lose a lot of damage, but the other 2 talents just don't seem to give anywhere near enough survival for the amount of burst the mobs put on you. Hopefully they'll buff SoI to be worth shit, and fix Holy Shield to actually be reflective instead of just saying it is on the tooltip to make the damage difference a bit less of a canyon and more like a gap.

  18. #58
    Holy Shield not reflective? to be honest I didn't know about that :P maybe Seraphim would be better choise but those trash in CM that could be pain without Holy Shield :/

  19. #59
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    The Kingdom of Astora
    Posts
    2,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I do feel like HS and full block will be the way to go for CMs. You'll lose a lot of damage, but the other 2 talents just don't seem to give anywhere near enough survival for the amount of burst the mobs put on you. Hopefully they'll buff SoI to be worth shit, and fix Holy Shield to actually be reflective instead of just saying it is on the tooltip to make the damage difference a bit less of a canyon and more like a gap.
    CMs are perfectly doable atm with EmpS. Did Skyreach CM today for realm best time on Silvermoon-EU in maybe 610 equipped with EmpS. The real issue in CMs at while everyone is still slightly undergeared is killing bosses before mechanics overwhelm you - last boss of BSM and Skyreach are both a pain in the fucking ass in that respect.

  20. #60
    Sure, you can DO CMs in any gear with any spec, and it's easy to get realm bests when relatively few groups are bothering, much less going for gold.

    I just think that at this ilvl, when we wont have an abundance of gems, EmpS needs a small buff in the survival department for the amount of activity it requires compared to HS which provides solid smoothness for no effort. Allowing the heal from Uther's *whatever* to scale with Resolve would be a good start. The main "edge" it seems to have at the moment is that it deals vastly more DPS than HS, since HS seems to just proc at random or not at all... which really needs to be fixed. It did 0.8% of my damage over the course of a full dungeon when I tried it out. Unless the intent is for HS to be ALL about mitigation - in which case that aspect needs a buff to put it ahead of Seraphim and EmpS more - then it should be dealing about the same damage whilst being attacked.

    To sum up, all I'm really saying is I think they missed the mark on balancing and bug fixing. Issues with our tankiness will also obviously be made worse when playing with garbage DPS specs that take ages to kill something or don't have the tools to deal with a mechanic, or healers that are undertuned just plain struggling regardless of what we actually do.
    Last edited by Smrtby; 2014-11-19 at 05:37 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •