Rosetta mission scientist Dr Matt Taylor cries during apology over 'offensive' shirt

[Wells]

You confuse me thinking it doesn't make them lunatics with me thinking its the ideal program, which I've already explained my position on. They want primary caregiver to have default custody. Ok. Not a crazy thing, even if it isn't the best idea.

You are creating an unfalsifiable claim, because when I point out realities of modern feminism, you just wave them off and say I should ignore them in favor of the feminists you like.

Hang on let me find that mirror for you. Of course there are feminists who think and act on stupid things. They're part of the same stupid species as the rest of us. What I reject is your notion they define the whole or that feminist is a bankrupt ideology because they exist. Feminists do good things in both small and big ways. A feminist group was instrumental in creating a program in my area where people, obviously usually women, who are stuck on campus or near it alone late at night can call for an escort to their car or whatever. That shit means way more in the real world than any number of tumblr blogs and youtube videos.

Well, it's lovely that you like these moderate feminists, maybe you can tell them to stop using their platforms to attack people for wearing shirts they don't like and bully them so much they have to make crying apologies after doing mankind one of the greatest achievements in human history.

I've made my stance on this issue clear. I'm not answerable for others.

What exactly do you want? Tell me what would prove it to you.

I don't think your claim can be proven because I think its fundamentally a flawed paradigm. Its like trying to prove that your particular god is the real one to someone who doesn't believe in any god.

[NineSpine]

Which is cherry picked. There are a ton of feminist groups out there doing things like pushing STEM for girls, dealing with body issues, strengthening equal pay laws and workplace equality, creating programs to help victims of violence etc etc.

Women are already overrepresented compared to men on college campuses. We need MORE benefits for women even though they are outpacing men in getting educations? This is what I am talking about. No sane person would look at a world where the majority of college students are men and say that we need to push to help more men in college, but in bizarro feminist world here we are talking about how being the majority in education is not enough, women must also go into the fields that men are primarily interested in.

Body issues are not gendered, and turning them into gendered issues is gross and sexist. It hurts people of the other sex with the issue. We see the exact same problem in sexual assault. The entire sexual assault survivor support infrastructure is built around women, and actively pushes out men. Men who call the police on domestic abusers are more likely to get arrested than the abuser. Men who call domestic abuse hotlines are told shockingly often that they are responsible and should call an abuser's hotline instead. This is what happens when you turn a non-gender issue into a gendered one. Despite the fact that the majority of rape victims in this country are men, due largely to prison rape, we have an entire support infrastructure built around women, and male rape is still a punchline instead of a serious issue.

In fact, legal definitions of rape typically don't include a woman forcing a man to have intercourse with her. When the National Crime Victimization Survey added "being made to penetrate" as a type of sexual assault in 2012, the numbers skyrocketed for men.

If you read feminist writings on male rape, it is widely considered an attack ON WOMEN because the rape victim is being made into a victim. Do you understand how sick that is? Even a man raping another man is turned into an attack on women. God forbid the man actually be a victim. Everything must be turned into the orthodoxy.

[Wells]

Women are already overrepresented compared to men on college campuses. We need MORE benefits for women even though they are outpacing men in getting educations? This is what I am talking about. No sane person would look at a world where the majority of college students are men and say that we need to push to help more men in college, but in bizarro feminist world here we are talking about how being the majority in education is not enough, women must also go into the fields that men are primarily interested in.

Not sure where you're getting this. I mentioned efforts to move women into STEM fields. Fields that pay rather well and are severely underrepresented among women, due to a variety of factors. That's a good thing. No one is talking about getting more women into college, I'm talking about getting them to choose a certain area as their major. I'm a little concerned this is what you took away from that. Women often move into fields that pay poorly. Address the societal factors that contribute to this is good work.

Body issues are not gendered, and turning them into gendered issues is gross and sexist.

le sigh. You're the one who brought gender into that particular issue. I just said body issues. Pretty much every body issues effort I've seen with feminists with any kind of organization are either gender neutral or with complimentary targeting.

Body issues are not gendered, and turning them into gendered issues is gross and sexist. It hurts people of the other sex with the issue. We see the exact same problem in sexual assault. The entire sexual assault survivor support infrastructure is built around women, and actively pushes out men. Men who call the police on domestic abusers are more likely to get arrested than the abuser. Men who call domestic abuse hotlines are told shockingly often that they are responsible and should call an abuser's hotline instead. This is what happens when you turn a non-gender issue into a gendered one. Despite the fact that the majority of rape victims in this country are men, due largely to prison rape, we have an entire support infrastructure built around women, and male rape is still a punchline instead of a serious issue.

And I have no issue with helping them. But bringing this up in response to someone pointing other good work done for women in need is just ridiculous and petty.

If you read feminist writings on male rape, it is widely considered an attack ON WOMEN because the rape victim is being made into a victim. Do you understand how sick that is? Even a man raping another man is turned into an attack on women. God forbid the man actually be a victim. Everything must be turned into the orthodoxy.

Oh yay we're back to nut picking.

[NineSpine]

You confuse me thinking it doesn't make them lunatics with me thinking its the ideal program, which I've already explained my position on. They want primary caregiver to have default custody. Ok. Not a crazy thing, even if it isn't the best idea.

If I said "I think the primary earner should get custody, because mothers are not that important to a child's life" do you actually expect me to believe you wouldn't consider that crazy and sexist?

Hang on let me find that mirror for you. Of course there are feminists who think and act on stupid things. They're part of the same stupid species as the rest of us. What I reject is your notion they define the whole or that feminist is a bankrupt ideology because they exist. Feminists do good things in both small and big ways. A feminist group was instrumental in creating a program in my area where people, obviously usually women, who are stuck on campus or near it alone late at night can call for an escort to their car or whatever. That shit means way more in the real world than any number of tumblr blogs and youtube videos.

I've made my stance on this issue clear. I'm not answerable for others.

I don't think your claim can be proven because I think its fundamentally a flawed paradigm. Its like trying to prove that your particular god is the real one to someone who doesn't believe in any god.

You are really fixated on tumblr. I've never read a tumblr blog as far as I know. I do read prominent feminist websites, like Feministing and Jezebel. I also read feminist academic journals, and as someone who works in academia I deal a lot with feminist history that is published in the journals my field is concerned with. It seems like it's just impossible for you to accept that anyone knows more about feminism than you and doesn't like it, because you seem wholly preoccupied as painting me as ignorant on this topic when my opinions purely come from looking the prominent feminist work and the causes they are attached to.

Let me make this really clear: I study the history of social movements, primarily in the Middle East, but also in the US. To say that I'm ignorant of feminism is bizarre.

[Wells]

If I said "I think the primary earner should get custody, because mothers are not that important to a child's life" do you actually expect me to believe you wouldn't consider that crazy and sexist?

That's a terrible analogy for the NoW argument and you know it.

You are really fixated on tumblr. I've never read a tumblr blog as far as I know. I do read prominent feminist websites, like Feministing and Jezebel. I also read feminist academic journals, and as someone who works in academia I deal a lot with feminist history that is published in the journals my field is concerned with. It seems like it's just impossible for you to accept that anyone knows more about feminism than you and doesn't like it, because you seem wholly preoccupied as painting me as ignorant on this topic when my opinions purely come from looking the prominent feminist work and the causes they are attached to.

You didn't really address my post, just an appeal to authority.

- - - Updated - - -

Again here is what NoW (this particular chapter) wants:

The National Organization for Women-New York State, Inc. is in favor of primary caregiver presumption. This means that the parent who assumed primary responsibility for the children during the marriage, either father or mother, should continue to be the custodial parent.

Agree or disagree this is not an unreasonable position. They highlight some fair issues with presumption of shared custody and while you may feel that those issues don't lend sufficient weight to their position they do put their position firmly in the realm of rational.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway Ninespine I'm out for the night. By the time I get back if the thread has moved forward much I probably won't be taking this up again, feel free to PM.

[Kori]

This is why I think feminism is stupid. If a woman wore a shirt with men wearing next to nothing nobody would say anything.

[Dugna]

Wells and Ninespine yall need to get a room.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

This is why I think feminism is stupid. If a woman wore a shirt with men wearing next to nothing nobody would say anything.

I don't know that I've ever seen such a shirt.

[NineSpine]

Not sure where you're getting this. I mentioned efforts to move women into STEM fields. Fields that pay rather well and are severely underrepresented among women, due to a variety of factors. That's a good thing. No one is talking about getting more women into college, I'm talking about getting them to choose a certain area as their major. I'm a little concerned this is what you took away from that. Women often move into fields that pay poorly. Address the societal factors that contribute to this is good work.

Women aren't in STEM fields because women aren't interested in STEM fields. We aren't having programs to get more men into psychology and sociology. Those are important fields too, but men aren't interested in them. Women dominate tons of college majors in very important fields, because those are the topics they are interested in.

le sigh. You're the one who brought gender into that particular issue. I just said body issues.

And I have no issue with helping them. But bringing this up in response to someone pointing other good work done for women in need is just ridiculous and petty.

Oh yay we're back to nut picking.

That's not nut picking. That's the mainstream view on the subject. I'm sorry that I read the academic journals and you don't. I'm sorry that I read the major feminist news sites/magazines and you do not. This no true feminist fallacy that you are desperately clinging to is getting old. I don't deny the existence of rational feminists, like Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Summers, but they don't represent the mainstream and they will be the FIRST PEOPLE to tell you that.

The "good work" you are talking about comes with the side effects I am talking about, and those side effects are largely the product of modern feminism twisting the good work of old school feminists. For example, establishing sexual assault support networks is a great thing. However, feminists have refused to accept that times have changed and that issue is no longer gendered. It is their insistence that we continue treating it as a gendered issue that causes the problems I am talking about. It makes absolute sense to treat it as a gendered issue when it overwhelmingly effects one gender. When it doesn't, and when the problem is radically smaller, continuing to treat it as gendered and common problem is actually counterproductive. It hurts people. It's a bad thing.

Why do YOU think it is that men who call domestic abuse hotlines get told to call an abuser's line instead? Why do YOU think it is that a man is more likely to get arrested than his abuser if he calls the police?

[KevyB]

Modern "feminists" can die in a fire for all i care. It's hard to think of a more useless and whiny group of people.

QFT, nothing more to be said.

If they don't die on their own, help will be granted.


[Infracted]

[Fullmetal89]

His tearjerker reminded me of this.

Hahaha hadn't seen this before.

[Kruncholyo]

QFT, nothing more to be said.

If they don't die on their own, help will be granted.

When they're done smashing the patriarchy, they'll die in a number of ways:
- electricity stops, they starve or freeze
- no public safety, they get murdered
- clean water stops, they get a disease

Landing on a comet is a big deal. Complaining about men isn’t. Also, we’ve been told that it’s always sexist and inappropriate for men to comment on women’s choice of attire, so why should women be allowed to criticize what men wear? This is just another sad effort on the part of losers to inject themselves into matters that are actually relevant, but in which they are unqualified to take part.

[KevyB]

When they're done smashing the patriarchy, they'll die in a number of ways:
- electricity stops, they starve or freeze
- no public safety, they get murdered
- clean water stops, they get a disease

Landing on a comet is a big deal. Complaining about men isn’t. Also, we’ve been told that it’s always sexist and inappropriate for men to comment on women’s choice of attire, so why should women be allowed to criticize what men wear? This is just another sad effort on the part of losers to inject themselves into matters that are actually relevant, but in which they are unqualified to take part.

NEVER point out hypocrisy to a feminist, they go apeshit immediately.

[Daedius]

Top: What a woman does to herself is no one's business.

/facepalm...

Ever heard of FGM [Female Genital Mutilation]? i.e. - What some Muslim countries do to women... ? i.e. - Cutting off the clitoris...

Hardly anything to do with "her business", as in wanting to do it, but she's forced to do it...

[Crissi]

/facepalm...

Ever heard of FGM [Female Genital Mutilation]? i.e. - What some Muslim countries do to women... ? i.e. - Cutting off the clitoris...

Hardly anything to do with "her business", as in wanting to do it, but she's forced to do it...

In addition, its almost always done by the mother and other older women to the young girl. Its not the girls choice, ever.

[breadisfunny]

he shouldn't have to apologize for anything. the fact that he had to marks a sad day for this world.

uhmmm why is the conversation completely different from what the topic is?

[Endus]

Since this thread's pretty thoroughly derailed into people complaining about gender equality movements, I'm locking this.