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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HalasHermit View Post
    https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...41818955603968


    Crit making lava burst multistrike more?

    Hope after all?
    I'm not seeing how this would improve any of the multitude QOL issues Shaman have other than further encouraging re-rolls to other classes.

  2. #22
    So a means to a hard cap on a stat even faster. Neat.

    At least they are acknowledging that shaman dps is indeed lackluster.

  3. #23
    For Elemental, Unleash Flame should have two charges and boost the next two fire spells by at least 60% + critical chance. If you have 20% critical chance, then Unleash Flame boosts your next two fire spells by 80%. This means Flame Shock will double dip on crit. That will improve crit scaling for us, indirectly buff Lava Burst through crit, give us the option to gear for crit, and make multi dotting rewarding in some situations.
    Unleash Flame perk should suppress movement impairment for 1-2 seconds.

  4. #24
    This is kinda like putting a band-aide on a severed limb. Sure, it looks like you are trying, but shows you have no knowledge of the problem at hand.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgrel View Post
    So a means to a hard cap on a stat even faster. Neat.

    At least they are acknowledging that shaman dps is indeed lackluster.
    with all do respect but this is like me acknowledging someone has a cancer! it helps them in no way shape or form! I don't need acknowledgement i need help in a form of a solution they can keep their acknowledgement and shuv it up their ... >

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Frika View Post
    with all do respect but this is like me acknowledging someone has a cancer! it helps them in no way shape or form! I don't need acknowledgement i need help in a form of a solution they can keep their acknowledgement and shuv it up their ... >
    The whole reason of the acknowledgement is to lower player frustration in hopes to "chill people out" since they're getting flak for the state of the class. But as you said it's all well and good, but someone can say they'll give you candy, and then you realize it's just candy corn. (Unless you like that.)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HalasHermit View Post
    https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...41818955603968


    Crit making lava burst multistrike more?

    Hope after all?
    Once you realize how pitifully minor this buff is hope is swiftly dashed. Toss in the fact that multistrike is a very nerfed stat in PvP, making us essentially no better in PvP if they implement this, is depressing. We need across the board number increases (huge number increases!) and rotation streamlining. Mastery needs to be stronger and not break cc. So much needs to be done, and to think all these issues will be addressed in an expedient fashion is deluded. I'm 100 at the moment and have now unsubbed. I will return when issues are addressed.

  8. #28
    Unless I am wrong here, it will still be literally terrible to stack Crit, I mean, lots of my gear will have it because it also comes with MS, but really, it won't change.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Once you realize how pitifully minor this buff is hope is swiftly dashed.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't been told numbers yet? It isn't going to be an absolutely massive change no, assuming 1% Crit = 1% Multistrike (which I don't think will be the case) then each 1% Crit will be worth 1.3% Lava Burst damage*, so if you have 20% crit it will increase Lava Burst damage by 26% (this is compared to 1% Crit being worth 1.5% damage - 1% of 150% bonus - of every other spell, meaning Crit will almost be as good for Lava Burst as it is every other spell if the conversion rate was 1%-1%). Now I think its more likely that this is way overkill and the conversion rate will be something more like 1% Crit = 0.5% Lava Burst Multistrike, but we'll see. It certainly isn't negligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    Unless I am wrong here, it will still be literally terrible to stack Crit, I mean, lots of my gear will have it because it also comes with MS, but really, it won't change.
    It wont make Crit out best stat no, but it will certainly improve it. Crit isn't actually that terrible for us anyway, its above Mastery and Versatility on single target already. You'll still prefer to get Multistrike and Haste on gear, but that doesn't mean the change is useless.

    *Math for 1% Multistrike - This assumes the 5% Multistrike Attunement doesn't interact with this at all, which I doubt it will

    Chance to do 0 bonus damage = (1 - 0.01) * (1 - 0.01) = 0.9801 (98.01%)
    Chance to do both hits of 65% bonus damage = 0.01 * 0.01 = 0.0001 (0.01%)
    Chance to do 65% bonus damage (1 of 2 hits) = 1 - 0.9801 - 0.0001 = 0.0198 (1.98%)

    Bonus Damage% for 1% Multistrike = (0.9801 * 0) + (0.0001 * 1.3) + (0.0198 * 0.65) = 0.013 (1.3%)
    Last edited by mmoc63fa3da953; 2014-11-21 at 05:40 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalasHermit View Post
    https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...41818955603968


    Crit making lava burst multistrike more?

    Hope after all?
    Shitty fix. Problem is that our main abilities don't hit hard enough... What would you rather have? Harder hitting spells that scale only decently from multistrike, or low hitting spells that scale very well with multistrike?

    Or like, say you put out 100 damage. Would you rather have that be 5 different spells that do 20 damage each, or 10 spells that do 10 damage each.

    Harder hitting spells is better IMO. Fewer sources of damage, but the damage being more meaningful. We should not be so overly reliant on multistrike.... its just like when you had fire mages who were overly reliant on crit. It just means we suck for most of the xpac until the very end tier when we have OP levels of multistrike (or crit in their case) and we end up getting nerfed because of how THEY designed us.

    Its so stupid. Elem damage already sucks sub lvl 90 with no multistrike available, yet our spells are balanced around its potential. Its just poor design to try and make us so heavily dependent on this one stat to do good DPS.

    Also.... crit giving you more multistrikes is such a low amount of damage. Lava Burst multistrike is only like 30% of an already low damage spell.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    Or like, say you put out 100 damage. Would you rather have that be 5 different spells that do 20 damage each, or 10 spells that do 10 damage each.

    Harder hitting spells is better IMO. Fewer sources of damage, but the damage being more meaningful.
    That is purely an objective viewpoint. From a balance perspective it is definitely better to do many low hitting spells, especially in PvP. Spell Reflect abilities are much less effective if you have many small hitting abilities. Also, plenty of people (myself included) have always enjoyed the Machine Gun feel that Shaman have had, that was our entire basis back in MoP and the whole reason we got an improved Multistrike now.

    At the end of the day, whether you do 100 damage from 10 spells or from 5 spells makes no difference from a PvE throughput PoV, its purely thematic, and whilst you might enjoy the 'Bring the Hammer Down' feel of a hard hitting spell (say Deep Freeze), plenty of others will enjoy the machine gun feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    We should not be so overly reliant on multistrike.... its just like when you had fire mages who were overly reliant on crit.
    Okay, this point I can agree with. Feeling overly reliant on RNG does suck, but it is how we have been since Cata and has become a pretty iconic part of our kit. It does feel shitty when you don't get any procs, but then it feels pretty awesome when you get loads, and on average it will balance out, so I think that is okay personally. Fire Mages have had it much, much worse than we have ever had in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    It just means we suck for most of the xpac until the very end tier when we have OP levels of multistrike (or crit in their case) and we end up getting nerfed because of how THEY designed us.
    This is such a moronic statement. "Please Blizz, we suck because we are going to be good in the future so you are going to nerf us, please buff us". What? Do you not see how hypocritical that statement is? If your basically saying we scale incredibly well but suck now, then fair enough (though I wouldn't actually agree at all). Either way, you can't predict they will nerf us in the future, so using that as a reason for why we suck now just doesn't make sense.

  12. #32
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    well, i think its gonna end with buffing shamanism. as always. <- blizzard solution to everything regarding elemental

  13. #33
    Except that this is a horrible way of going about it. "Lets inflate the value of crit by imposing a negative scaling soft cap on multistrike..."

    There has got to be a simpler way to go about it, such as just increasing damage based on crit %. Its not broken on other classes, and we will still value crit much lower then others simply due to our need of haste/multi/mastery. The main problem I see is that this just isn't going to be enough of a change, giving LB a 10% increase in damage (assuming the increase is 1:1 with crit % which it most likely will NOT be) would still only be a 5-6% increase overall.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    That is purely an objective viewpoint. From a balance perspective it is definitely better to do many low hitting spells, especially in PvP. Spell Reflect abilities are much less effective if you have many small hitting abilities. Also, plenty of people (myself included) have always enjoyed the Machine Gun feel that Shaman have had, that was our entire basis back in MoP and the whole reason we got an improved Multistrike now.

    At the end of the day, whether you do 100 damage from 10 spells or from 5 spells makes no difference from a PvE throughput PoV, its purely thematic, and whilst you might enjoy the 'Bring the Hammer Down' feel of a hard hitting spell (say Deep Freeze), plenty of others will enjoy the machine gun feel.



    Okay, this point I can agree with. Feeling overly reliant on RNG does suck, but it is how we have been since Cata and has become a pretty iconic part of our kit. It does feel shitty when you don't get any procs, but then it feels pretty awesome when you get loads, and on average it will balance out, so I think that is okay personally. Fire Mages have had it much, much worse than we have ever had in the past.
    I'd have to disagree with you on the hard hitting aspect..... Lava Burst hitting for less then LB and not feeling very "bursty" seems to be a big issue. They basically have made it hit for very little on the assumption that it would be strong/balanced with multiple surge and multistrike procs... and you can prob add mastery procs to that.

    Basically all these little sources of damage are supposed to add up to make it seem like a normal, harder hitting attack. You may think this is better cause its more predictable or whatever, but again I disagree. I personally think its much easier to predict damage when you have less random sources that can add damage.... you have strong base damage of your spell, with less reliance on RNG stuff like multistrike or mastery to bring its damage up to par.

    We may have been designed like that in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean its a good thing. Plus, our unique mastery was handed out to everyone else... and sometimes it seems like those classes get more benfits from mastery then we do (I'm still unsure about how procs or resource gen works with multistrike as I hear various opinions on it, but some specs get bonus effects like Frost mage or Surv Hunter). Would you rather have consistent, predictable damage that scales more linearly with your gear.... or more RNG reliant that is greatly gear dependent and can fluctuate alot, only averaging out over longer periods?


    This is such a moronic statement. "Please Blizz, we suck because we are going to be good in the future so you are going to nerf us, please buff us". What? Do you not see how hypocritical that statement is? If your basically saying we scale incredibly well but suck now, then fair enough (though I wouldn't actually agree at all). Either way, you can't predict they will nerf us in the future, so using that as a reason for why we suck now just doesn't make sense.
    Hardly what I am saying at all. There is plenty of very specific criticism about various spells and mechanics for the class.... so thats not the only reason I am saying we need a buff. But my point was that when Elemental mentioned that they were performing poorly and we needed a buff, Celestalon replied saying "Actually, your DPS is kind of OP in our testing, so you are fine"...... all this means is that their "testing" with us in max ilvl gear has us supposedly performing very well, even tho our DPS currently sucks. He also has replied to a few other posts about Elem DPS with stuff like "What is your multistrike at?". They keep stressing multistrike, as if it is our god level stat.... something we will do shitty DPS without or at low levels, and amazing DPS at high levels. This is no different then crit dependent fire mages.

    And... with that in mind, is why I made my comment. They expect us to scale crazy good with multistrike, so it somehow excuses our poor DPS currently because everything will work itself out once you get the best raid gear (forget about how you will get a raid spot with low DPS). So then.... we put up with low DPS for a whole raid tier, maybe we are mid tier at the end of the first tier.... and assume we become top tier DPS in the second raid tier because of how crazy good multistrike scales.... but they don't like that we have suddenly become OP and nerf us because they don't want us doing that good DPS.

    I am just echoing the problems that classes like Fury warriors or Fire mages have faced, where they start out with low DPS cause of low crit and then crazy DPS in the final raid tier cause of super high levels of crit.... but always get nerfed because of their high damage that is all purely by design. They rely far too much on crit, having to put up with shitty DPS in the hopes of doing high DPS at some later point in time.... only to get nerfed once they reach that point. Its a stupid system. Much better to not be so reliant on a stat like crit or multistrike, and just have DPS scale more linearly with gear. This over reliance on multistrike hurts Elem at low levels also.... from what I have heard, leveling is a pain as Elem and unlike crit you don't get any multistrike until 90+.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Frika View Post
    with all do respect but this is like me acknowledging someone has a cancer! it helps them in no way shape or form! I don't need acknowledgement i need help in a form of a solution they can keep their acknowledgement and shuv it up their ... >
    Friendly FYI: We're on the same side. This spec (and class overall) is as useful as a pile of dog shit. I was being pretty sarcastic there with my second sentence, but I realize that isn't very clear.

  16. #36
    What I'd love to see from this change is, instead of increasing multistrike chance, it would give lava burst a chance to fire a second time equal to your crit chance. That would help slow down our chance of hitting 100% multistrike chance as we get more geared and would maintain ele's theme of throwing out a lot of spells at once. Numbers would have to be adjusted, but I think that it would go a long way to make crit an extremely competitive stat for ele (remember that ele already crits for 250% damage due to elemental fury).

    That may be too strong in PvP, but, personally I don't see what ele contributes in PvP without a hard hitting lava burst (or, in this case, many small-hitting lava bursts). That's especially true now that it's back to a more stationary "turret" spec.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddy090909 View Post
    What I'd love to see from this change is, instead of increasing multistrike chance, it would give lava burst a chance to fire a second time equal to your crit chance. That would help slow down our chance of hitting 100% multistrike chance as we get more geared and would maintain ele's theme of throwing out a lot of spells at once. Numbers would have to be adjusted, but I think that it would go a long way to make crit an extremely competitive stat for ele (remember that ele already crits for 250% damage due to elemental fury).

    That may be too strong in PvP, but, personally I don't see what ele contributes in PvP without a hard hitting lava burst (or, in this case, many small-hitting lava bursts). That's especially true now that it's back to a more stationary "turret" spec.
    a) Crit modifier was raised to 270% with WoD IIRC.
    b) Your version has no chance of happening, because that would have a huge chance of random burst. They changed our mastery-version to the multistrike we have now because it's less unreliable/bursty. Their intention is more along the lines of "20% chance to do 50% extra is good, 10% chance to do 100% extra is bad", which you can see with multistrike now.
    The idea that it should scale independently from multistrike is good though!

    Problem is that the things they told us are few and even if it is somewhat predictable what would happen, it's not enough. Assuming it's 1% crit = 1% LvB-multistrike, then the change would increase the damage of LvB by about 10% (our crit-chance and the 80%-damage of multistrike together), which sounds not bad, but seeing as LvB does at most 30% of our damage, that's a whopping 3% Total DPS-increase... seeing as we're about 20% behind the average... well...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by DaDimi View Post
    a) Crit modifier was raised to 270% with WoD IIRC.
    I'm pretty sure that the increase to 270% was an old draenor perk and didn't actually make it into live.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaDimi View Post
    b) Your version has no chance of happening, because that would have a huge chance of random burst. They changed our mastery-version to the multistrike we have now because it's less unreliable/bursty. Their intention is more along the lines of "20% chance to do 50% extra is good, 10% chance to do 100% extra is bad", which you can see with multistrike now.
    The idea that it should scale independently from multistrike is good though!
    It's true that my version is unlikely to happen, but I'm just really hopeful that Blizzard is thinking to the future with this change. In their current implementation, they're causing crit and multistrike to scale negatively with each other with respect to lava burst (that is, adding more of one decreases the value of the other), which could hurt our scaling as we go into future tiers.

    Also, I wouldn't call the new multistrike any less bursty than our old mastery was. The old mastery was a chance to deal 75% damage, while multistrike is 2 chances to deal 41% damage (low chance of 82% damage). They're very similar in terms of potential multiplier, but multistrike is less reliable at getting full damage off.

    I know that adding more burst could be a problem in PvP, but Ele's main contribution in arena has been burst and off-heals, of which it doesn't really have either anymore. Adding more potential damage could make ascendance a threating cooldown again and ele a prime target for trying to keep locked down (something that it needs to be as a spec that is mostly stationary hard-casting).

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgrel View Post
    Friendly FYI: We're on the same side. This spec (and class overall) is as useful as a pile of dog shit. I was being pretty sarcastic there with my second sentence, but I realize that isn't very clear.
    apologies mate i have a lot of anger toward anything that is ele shaman atm and i know its not your fault or anyone elses and that i shouldn't be a dick but since i can't vent my literal hatred toward those fuckers from blizzard (because they are not communicating with the community on any level!) i tend to snap on the forums -.- my bad! Sorry
    Quote Originally Posted by DaDimi View Post
    b) Your version has no chance of happening, because that would have a huge chance of random burst. They changed our mastery-version to the multistrike we have now because it's less unreliable/bursty. Their intention is more along the lines of "20% chance to do 50% extra is good, 10% chance to do 100% extra is bad", which you can see with multistrike now.
    The idea that it should scale independently from multistrike is good though!
    This is one of the many things i don't get behind the ele changes. They wanted to for us to do less dps in pvp? Ok fair enough so they nerfed the crit value in pvp and they nerfed the casting time of LvB they removed our mastery and nerfed the dmg done of the spell. So they nerfed the LvB on every single level to the point where it does no dmg. I can see that being an issue after playing 5 mins in pvp and i am a normal game i am by no means an expert or a pvp player for that matter so how the fuck did they not see this? LB critting more than LvB is just facepalm situation i won't even start on that one since it has been said more than enough by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by freddy090909 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the increase to 270% was an old draenor perk and didn't actually make it into live.


    It's true that my version is unlikely to happen, but I'm just really hopeful that Blizzard is thinking to the future with this change. In their current implementation, they're causing crit and multistrike to scale negatively with each other with respect to lava burst (that is, adding more of one decreases the value of the other), which could hurt our scaling as we go into future tiers.

    Also, I wouldn't call the new multistrike any less bursty than our old mastery was. The old mastery was a chance to deal 75% damage, while multistrike is 2 chances to deal 41% damage (low chance of 82% damage). They're very similar in terms of potential multiplier, but multistrike is less reliable at getting full damage off.

    I know that adding more burst could be a problem in PvP, but Ele's main contribution in arena has been burst and off-heals, of which it doesn't really have either anymore. Adding more potential damage could make ascendance a threating cooldown again and ele a prime target for trying to keep locked down (something that it needs to be as a spec that is mostly stationary hard-casting).
    Except the fact that multistrike is totally nowhere near as bursty as our old mastery not only because of what i already said above but also because we don't have echo anymore since its so utter shit! You can gear yourself in warforged mythical gear at this point and your dmg will maybe be as good as other classes with their current 630 ilevel gear.
    Us being good at next tier is by no means good enough since this tier is going to consist of only 2 tiers besides blizzard themselves made a statement saying `we want all dps to be doing the same dps and there will be no huge dps output differences like MoP` which ain't happening. Also if they want to 'balance' the game that way (The way you suggested)than all they have to do is come out and fucking say so. You think i will play my class when i know its going to be utter shit for 1 out of 2 tiers ? Do you think that most guilds will not start discriminating against you? Mate I AM FUCKING DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME AND I AM PLAYING THE SHITTY CLASS! How are others not suppose to is just beyond me!
    In my eyes its plain and simple blizzard managed to fuck up yet again on godzila type of scale and they are doing everything possible to avoid taking responsibility for it.

    Just one more thing. Hunter with patch 6.0.2 or whatever were totall and utter shit for less than 3 days because blizzard once again managed to drop the ball it took them less than 3 days to fix that class because it was so sub par voidwalker pets were laughing at them! The loot system from dungeons which blizzard turned to Need before greed and than switched back to personal with a small improvement was another huge fuck up on their side. Both of those things are similar or the same type of situations ele shamans if not the shaman class as a whole is in atm and yet we have no solution right now and we are coming closer and closer at the opening of the raiding tier. So my question is this why aren't we getting fixed? Whats the hold up? Is it too hard to buff shamanism again or what? They forgot how to write pc code maybe?

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