Is Telling Someone To Use Caution Really Victim Blaming?

[Deleted]

I hope some day you understand why this is a very stupid thing to say.

It's stupid but it's what seems like when someone goes ''What? You're telling me to not do this because it's dangerous? I'll do whatever I want and if I get assaulted it's not my fault so stop trying to victim blame''

[Deleted]

The problem is that it's so easy, especially with rape cases for people to go from "it doesn't hurt to take precautions" to "It's entirely their fault because they didn't take precautions." And as you go down that slippery slope, the onus is on women to do more and more to stop themselves getting raped. Don't go down that dark alley, dress conservatively, wear this anti-rape nail polish, make sure you've got a man to chaperone you, learn judo, don't leave the house. Where does it end? What prohibitive measures do women have to take to prevent what is a somewhat remote scenario. And what happens when all that stuff isn't enough and they get raped anyway? And of course none of these things actually stop rapists. It's just a band-aid, it doesn't go to the source of the problem.

[Deleted]

Over the past 4 or 5 years, there has been a lot of pushback in our culture in how we talk about and treat victims and all people who have had to deal with certain atrocities. Most of it makes perfect sense and in hindsight was very much needed. Comments like "but what was she wearing?" really were turning the focus away from the assailant to the victim in an unneeded way and the shockingly gross "she was asking for it" has greatly diminished as of late (yay!). However, like all good things, I believe things CAN be taken too far. I've had a dickens of a time telling ANYONE to do ANYTHING vaguely cautious without being verbally smacked upside the head for victim blaming, which is quite odd to me. A few years back, if one of my friends wanted to walk through the docks, industrial district, or south end at night alone I would have told them it was a bad idea and they should probably reconsider. I myself wouldn't do that and Im a freakin' bouncer for crying out loud. I still warn people (because it is a bad idea) but am more often than not met with ridicule of either sexism if the person I'm warning is a woman (you think I can't take care of myself because I'm a woman?) or victim blaming (Yeah, sure, it's not the muggers that are being shitty it's me!). If someone mugs you, it's not your fault. However, if someone mugs you at 2 in the morning in a dark alley in the bad part of town by yourself (cliche example is cliche, I know), you might have to ask yourself what you were doing there in the first place frankly. Chalking up any and all appeal to caution as victim blaming seems like an odd lack of personal responsibility to me.

I personally see a HUGE difference between taking precautions and blaming the victim, but that line seems to be blurring in the current narrative. What are your thoughts on the matter MMO-Champ? Am I terribly out of touch with reality or has the concept of caution and responsibility been somewhat thrown out the window as of late?

Before anyone starts coming in this thread appealing to any sense of privilege I have that makes me too blind to see the obvious truth, I've been sexually assaulted, mugged, AND robbed in my life of which none of them were my fault. Sometimes bad things just happen even when taking precautions and I TOTALLY get that.

People are too passive about their lives, because it is simpler. They rather give responsibility to the government and believe it is the right thing to do. What follows are absurd laws (such as needing to have a test before you dye your hair; it saves 0.08 lives every year) and people even less willing to make decisions.
Most reported rapes are either fake, or the victim's own choice (fault), for instance.

[Nilil]

Most reported rapes are either fake, or the victim's own choice (fault), for instance.

Can i get a citation for this statement? It seems like a pretty outrageous claim unless you're being really liberal with the word fault.

[Tyrgannus]

Well, this thread has turned out to be somewhat polarizing in it's replies. I'm not too surprised if I'm honest with myself.

[Crissi]

Well, this thread has turned out to be somewhat polarizing in it's replies. I'm not too surprised if I'm honest with myself.

Yeah, if we already have a couple people putting the blame of rape on the victim, I cant see this thread lasting too long :s Ignoring that if being raped was a choice, it isnt rape but consensual sex...

[rayvio]

telling people to be careful isn't victim blaming, no, but if you say something like that to someone who has been a victim you really do have to be careful how you word it because many victims do, consciously or unconsciously, blame themselves to some degree and it's not unusual for the mind to grab hold of anything that seems to support that guilt

[Daphna Faldor]

No, promoting caution is a show of concern. However, it isn't useful in hindsight due to the preventive nature of caution. That's where the crux is though, we'd like traumatic experiences to be prevented, so we promote caution to those whom can't be helped by it because they've already being subjected to a traumatic experience . We're barking up the wrong tree.

[Moshots]

Over the past 4 or 5 years, there has been a lot of pushback in our culture in how we talk about and treat victims and all people who have had to deal with certain atrocities. Most of it makes perfect sense and in hindsight was very much needed. Comments like "but what was she wearing?" really were turning the focus away from the assailant to the victim in an unneeded way and the shockingly gross "she was asking for it" has greatly diminished as of late (yay!). However, like all good things, I believe things CAN be taken too far. I've had a dickens of a time telling ANYONE to do ANYTHING vaguely cautious without being verbally smacked upside the head for victim blaming, which is quite odd to me. A few years back, if one of my friends wanted to walk through the docks, industrial district, or south end at night alone I would have told them it was a bad idea and they should probably reconsider. I myself wouldn't do that and Im a freakin' bouncer for crying out loud. I still warn people (because it is a bad idea) but am more often than not met with ridicule of either sexism if the person I'm warning is a woman (you think I can't take care of myself because I'm a woman?) or victim blaming (Yeah, sure, it's not the muggers that are being shitty it's me!). If someone mugs you, it's not your fault. However, if someone mugs you at 2 in the morning in a dark alley in the bad part of town by yourself (cliche example is cliche, I know), you might have to ask yourself what you were doing there in the first place frankly. Chalking up any and all appeal to caution as victim blaming seems like an odd lack of personal responsibility to me.

I personally see a HUGE difference between taking precautions and blaming the victim, but that line seems to be blurring in the current narrative. What are your thoughts on the matter MMO-Champ? Am I terribly out of touch with reality or has the concept of caution and responsibility been somewhat thrown out the window as of late?

Before anyone starts coming in this thread appealing to any sense of privilege I have that makes me too blind to see the obvious truth, I've been sexually assaulted, mugged, AND robbed in my life of which none of them were my fault. Sometimes bad things just happen even when taking precautions and I TOTALLY get that.

If people are that stupid to not listen and criticize you for trying to help. then they deserve a darwin award if they end up dead in a ditch walking through bad neighborhoods at 2am just to prove its not dangerous.

[Deleted]

"Hey, don't go and jump in that volcano, that looks dangerous!"

"OMG IT'S NOT MY FAULT LAVA SHOULD LEARN NOT TO BURN ME!"

[Tyrgannus]

telling people to be careful isn't victim blaming, no, but if you say something like that to someone who has been a victim you really do have to be careful how you word it because many victims do, consciously or unconsciously, blame themselves to some degree and it's not unusual for the mind to grab hold of anything that seems to support that guilt

Speaking as someone who has been the victim of traumatic atrocities (and not just completely out of my ass), I highly suggest people seek out therapy if they indeed are the victim of a violent crime or something of that ilk. Unfortunately I know that not everyone has easy access to this, but I really wish everyone did. It honestly can help quite a bit in getting over the exact things you were mentioning.

Yeah, if we already have a couple people putting the blame of rape on the victim, I cant see this thread lasting too long :s Ignoring that if being raped was a choice, it isnt rape but consensual sex...

This is somewhat sad because I was trying to broach the topic in a mature way when I made this thread and I think there has been some valuable discussion amidst the...less valuable posts. Specifically, the concept of timing is interesting to me and makes sense, but somewhat poses another question. Hindsight cautionary inquiries cannot change the past and thus cannot prevent anything so in many ways they same like worthless questioning at best and victim blaming at worst. That has been a point brought up in this thread. However, is it ever possible to discuss past traumatic events in any other depth than "it was horrible"? If so, what would be the right way to go about it?

Honestly, I'm trying to be as respectful as possible here.

[Crissi]

"Hey, don't go and jump in that volcano, that looks dangerous!"

"OMG IT'S NOT MY FAULT LAVA SHOULD LEARN NOT TO BURN ME!"

Although about half the time its more like this:

Victim: I got hit by a car while I was walking on the sidewalk

Person B: Well you shouldn't have been walking on that sidewalk!

[Deleted]

Although about half the time its more like this:

Victim: I got hit by a car while I was walking on the sidewalk

Person B: Well you shouldn't have been walking on that sidewalk!

Very true, there is idiocy on both sides.

[Crissi]

This is somewhat sad because I was trying to broach the topic in a mature way when I made this thread and I think there has been some valuable discussion amidst the...less valuable posts. Specifically, the concept of timing is interesting to me and makes sense, but somewhat poses another question. Hindsight cautionary inquiries cannot change the past and thus cannot prevent anything so in many ways they same like worthless questioning at best and victim blaming at worst. That has been a point brought up in this thread. However, is it ever possible to discuss past traumatic events in any other depth than "it was horrible"? If so, what would be the right way to go about it?

Honestly, I'm trying to be as respectful as possible here.

I hink the best way to go about that is to offer advice when the person is ready for it. The victim has to be the one to reach out first. Thats going to be the most effective and least offensive time.

[Tyrgannus]

Although about half the time its more like this:

Victim: I got hit by a car while I was walking on the sidewalk

Person B: Well you shouldn't have been walking on that sidewalk!

I posed the question earlier in the thread of how dangerous or "seemingly" safe a situation needs to be before someone is considered an idiot or an innocent victim. I noticed it didn't get a reply. People don't like heap of sand problems because it infringes upon their absolutist mindsets

[Crissi]

I posed the question earlier in the thread of how dangerous or "seemingly" safe a situation needs to be before someone is considered an idiot or an innocent victim. I noticed it didn't get a reply. People don't like heap of sand problems because it infringes upon their absolutist mindsets

The line is almost always arbitrary. Its why absolutist statements are stupid, and often based on incomplete information.

[Deleted]

I posed the question earlier in the thread of how dangerous or "seemingly" safe a situation needs to be before someone is considered an idiot or an innocent victim. I noticed it didn't get a reply. People don't like heap of sand problems because it infringes upon their absolutist mindsets

It's a very hard line to draw, so many variables. There's also the problem that what seems obvious to some, unfortunately isn't to others. It gets to the point where it's hard to give advice without also implying an assault on their intelligence.

[Crissi]

It's a very hard line to draw, so many variables. There's also the problem that what seems obvious to some, unfortunately isn't to others. It gets to the point where it's hard to give advice without also implying an assault on their intelligence.

WHats even better is conflicting information

"Take better precautions from being raped!"

"Ok! I'll just avoid all the men I know in private settings!" (because that's most of the rapes to women)

"WTF dont judge men based on being men! Thats sexist!"

Which just leaves me so confused..

[Tyrgannus]

WHats even better is conflicting information

"Take better precautions from being raped!"

"Ok! I'll just avoid all the men I know in private settings!" (because that's most of the rapes to women)

"WTF dont judge men based on being men! Thats sexist!"

Which just leaves me so confused..

Devil's advocating, but probably (hopefully) those are 2 different people saying these sentiments. I see this a lot on these boards that people say they are bombarded with conflicting messages, but often times X poster says one thing and Y poster says another, but each poster is at least semi-consistant.

Some people will talk out of both sides of their mouth though and I totally realize this is a possibility. Still, I have said the latter statement to people in all honesty. I personally don't like being judged or treated differently because I am a man. Maybe I need to look at it in a different context, but even with an understanding of the situation I'm still going to feel untrusted and kind of shitty

[Crissi]

Devil's advocating, but probably (hopefully) those are 2 different people saying these sentiments. I see this a lot on these boards that people say they are bombarded with conflicting messages, but often times X poster says one thing and Y poster says another, but each poster is at least semi-consistant.

Some people will talk out of both sides of their mouth though and I totally realize this is a possibility. Still, I have said the latter statement to people in all honesty. I personally don't like being judged or treated differently because I am a man. Maybe I need to look at it in a different context, but even with an understanding of the situation I'm still going to feel untrusted and kind of shitty

Nope! I can count on a few rather extremely conservative dudes that simultaneously say both. WHich usualy ends up devolving into "Well its your fault for being a poor judge of character".

Note that I don't actually treat men different or take such silly precautions. (Although I wont accept random drinks or leave mine out in the open). Its just something I throw back in their hypocritical faces.