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  1. #1
    Legendary! MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    The reversion to Need > Greed is not good enough

    This isn't a fix, this is just a change to something just as bad in a different way, sometimes worse. We've gone back to items dropping for groups that don't need them and extremely loose need rules; I just finished an Iron Docks and was ALLOWED to need on an Agil staff and a tank trinket. As a Warrior, the trinket, sure, that makes sense, but an agil staff? Why should I be allowed to need on that when in a random group?

    Do you remember when people who had no clue or who loved to be fuckedous would need everything in your dungeons, even things they couldn't use? Do you remember how it felt to be the odd man out in a group where 4 guildies are needing on all drops to gear one person up when you need to replace some items as well? These are much worse than no loot dropping from a boss imo, because the loot actually is dropping, but instead of RNG deciding that you don't get it, it's people. People doing rude and annoying things. And that's worse than just losing a coin flip, when someone's using a coin with two heads and no tail.

    This is going to cause more problems, specifically for the next few months as people ding 100, reach iLvl610 and become iLvl-hungry. People suck, and this change gives people many different ways to fuck everyone else over. Plenty of goons and goobers are going to be grabbing whatever they can for whoever they want, simply because they're allowed to. That was a problem that personal loot solved completely, protecting random groups from dingleberries with the intent to need on stuff they couldn't make use of.

    What I would've really liked to see would be a way to ensure that every boss in an instance drops at least one piece of gear for someone, ensuring that you don't run Everbloom or UBRS and only the last boss drops an item, which feels very gross. When no boss in an entire run drops nothing at all...well, why'd you even queue up? That was my only gripe with the Personal Loot system in 5-mans, all the work, the wipes, the trash clearing and CC, the hour long queue I just sat through, it was a waste of my time because none of the bosses dropped any loot. That's worse than a boss dropping something and not winning it imo. I didn't have an issue with not seeing the loot that someone won when I loot the bosses's corpse, although I know that some people did like to see what the boss looted outside of their chat frame.

    So instead of fixing that specific issue, they revert to one that provides several more severe issues, issues that will augment people's sense of anonymity and propel them to act like asshats. These seem like much worse issues to me.

    You can tell that I'm very opposed to the reversion to Need > Greed, so what do you think:

    • Did you like Personal Loot the way it was?
    • Do you like the return to Need > Greed (Including the lax need rolls?)
    • Would you have liked to see Personal Loot remain but its issues fixed?
    • Do you want some sort of brand new loot system?
    • Am I missing something very important, or otherwise overreacting?
    Last edited by MonsieuRoberts; 2014-11-21 at 03:49 AM.
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  2. #2
    The Patient
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    I'm pretty sure almost everyone agrees with you, personal loot was fine as is. The argument that people wouldn't see loot dropping were the people looking for a pretty box in the middle of their screen and something to roll on, not the people who could see what dropped in the chat box. I'm done with doing random dungeons as a tank when after 4 dungeons, I've seen 5 tank items and won a grand total of 1 of them. I'm not here to speed up the queues so people can gear up their offspec and fuck me over.
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  3. #3
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    Agreed, and I like personal loot better as well.

    That being said, I am going to be the devils advocate on this one, because personal loot DID suffer from 2 glaring issues:

    1) It was possible for a boss to not drop any loot. At all. Since everyones chance was calculated individually, with each players loot not influencing the others, it was possible, that a boss didn't award ANYTHING. That#s frustrating, because after the clear, the run, the work, the queue, if you just get a big f.u. after all that, that's a kick in the balls right there.

    2) Its impossible to support your friends. Today, before the change, i ran with a freshly dinged feral drood from our raid team. I am a rogue, currently 636, so I don't need anything from that place (I think it was Iron docks?). I got 3 Items out of that dungeon. He got none. However, he could have used ALL THREE; and I wanted to give them to him. Nope, sorry, personal loot. Freaking frustrating situation if you ask me.

  4. #4
    Legendary! MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Agreed, and I like personal loot better as well.

    That being said, I am going to be the devils advocate on this one, because personal loot DID suffer from 2 glaring issues:

    1) It was possible for a boss to not drop any loot. At all. Since everyones chance was calculated individually, with each players loot not influencing the others, it was possible, that a boss didn't award ANYTHING. That#s frustrating, because after the clear, the run, the work, the queue, if you just get a big f.u. after all that, that's a kick in the balls right there.

    2) Its impossible to support your friends. Today, before the change, i ran with a freshly dinged feral drood from our raid team. I am a rogue, currently 636, so I don't need anything from that place (I think it was Iron docks?). I got 3 Items out of that dungeon. He got none. However, he could have used ALL THREE; and I wanted to give them to him. Nope, sorry, personal loot. Freaking frustrating situation if you ask me.
    Yup, the two big problems with it. I hope that we'll get it back with these two issues changed.
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  5. #5
    The rng for personal loot needs tweaks and some form of streak protection, it was extremely frustrating for players who follow chat window to see 2 people exit dungeon with 3 pieces of loot and others with nothing and such. That seemed very unfair. Or a boss drop an item for everyone but you. Not even mentioning the usual bull**** of personal loot where you can get 5 loot items and 3 out of those would be for the same slot, let's say 3 bracers.

    Also since Blizzard cut the avenues of getting "fallback" gear in case of unluck with loot, like rep gear, jp gear or cheap craftables (seems they're either expensive epics, or bop) people will feel even more left out when others run heroics / cms freely and they still miss a bit ilvl to get there.

    You know statistics work best when the sample is big, and most people won't run 1000 dungeons to see that their "average loot chance" fit within intended %. In smaller samples cases of extreme luck / unluck happen and cause jealousy or annoyance.

  6. #6
    Honestly, I really loved personal loot. I could queue for dungeons that had good loot tables for me, and I often had a good chuckle when I'd do em' and get nothing!

    Ultimately, though, I wasn't competing against other people and that felt good. There was no arguing about it, everyone's been congratulating each other on good pieces of gear and upgrades - and you know that you'll get that piece eventually.

  7. #7
    While I preferred personal loot, I was constantly forgetting to loot the boss. CONSTANTLY.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by halicia View Post
    while i preferred personal loot, i was constantly forgetting to loot the boss. Constantly.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MonsieuRoberts View Post

    • Did you like Personal Loot the way it was?
    • Do you like the return to Need > Greed (Including the lax need rolls?)
    • Would you have liked to see Personal Loot remain but its issues fixed?
    • Do you want some sort of brand new loot system?
    • Am I missing something very important, or otherwise overreacting?
    I love the personal loot, I don't see why that's going away. I can just run the instance, and hope to get things, but if I don't, it's the system saying no, not some idiot who just hit's the "Need" button because it lit up for them.

    No, I don't like the return to need > greed. It was fine on personal loot. Now it's only one item per boss again, instead of potentially more loot. I don't see who would be in favor of need > greet.

    What issues specifically? I saw no real issues with it.

    No, Personal Loot system is fine, they don't need an entirely new loot system, unless it's like tokens off of every boss, plus a bonus 1-5 for completing the dungeon, and you can just buy the loot off of a vendor for say 10 - 25 tokens. Like say a belt is only 10 tokens, so you'll be able to buy a belt roughly every 2 dungeons (based on 4 bosses per dungeon + bonus tokens) and something like weapons can cost 25, so you'd have to run a few more to get that. A system like that, I'd be fine with, especially since it would make it easier to experiment with new gear instead of going to instances and hoping for that one lucky drop to get new items.

    No idea. I personally think the people that are against the new loot system are overreacting and I don't understand why. I felt like I was coming out of dungeons with at least a piece of gear a run, but usually 2 or rarely 3. What's not to like about more gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    2) Its impossible to support your friends. Today, before the change, i ran with a freshly dinged feral drood from our raid team. I am a rogue, currently 636, so I don't need anything from that place (I think it was Iron docks?). I got 3 Items out of that dungeon. He got none. However, he could have used ALL THREE; and I wanted to give them to him. Nope, sorry, personal loot. Freaking frustrating situation if you ask me.
    That right there is one of the prime examples of why the NEED > GREED system is extremely flawed. You, who over gears the instance and needs no loot, can still roll against those that actually do need it. I don't care that you're trying to help your buddy out to get gear, that gear is at the expense of other players. If there was a hunter in there and an AGI ring drops, he's got a 2 to 1 chance of losing that ring, all because you're in there with your friend, not that you actually NEED the item like the system is intended for.

    The only way I'm okay with the NEED / GREED system coming back is if they make it so that if your gear ilvl for that piece exceeds the item, you are no longer eligible to roll NEED on it, because you don't need it, you want it.
    Last edited by Thetruth1400; 2014-11-21 at 05:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Mister Cheese's Avatar
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    You should get a guaranteed item off the last boss. And personal loot should be tradeable. But this is the perfect solution so that means it will never be put in.

  11. #11
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    Meanwhile today, I saw 0 loots after killing 10 bosses on Heroic. OH SO REWARDING FOR 3 HOURS OF TIME!

  12. #12
    I don't really care how the loots done myself. Sure rolling on stuff is fun (even when passing you get to see it). Though my experience of personal loot was dying 10 times in a run and making 3g a boss and no loot. While my experience with the reverted loot was no deaths and 2 upgrades hah. Anecdotal at best I know.

  13. #13
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    I loved personal loot, the only thing I think could have been better is if once per dungeon you could trade something that you won to someone else to assist them with gearing. Now what we're going to see is 2-3 man groups of friends doing dungeons and all of them rolling to keep everything in their group. Its pretty shitty and I dont think swapping to need (f)or greed is the way to go.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmox View Post
    You should get a guaranteed item off the last boss. And personal loot should be tradeable. But this is the perfect solution so that means it will never be put in.
    no no no no NO. it only caters to very short term needs and "get what i want quick and NOW NOW NOW" but buggers up the entire system for the mid to long term.

    we are not supposed to have loot just drop into our laps and shoot through the content. RNG and the risk of no drops exists for a reason.

  15. #15
    Scarab Lord Mister Cheese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    no no no no NO. it only caters to very short term needs and "get what i want quick and NOW NOW NOW" but buggers up the entire system for the mid to long term.

    we are not supposed to have loot just drop into our laps and shoot through the content. RNG and the risk of no drops exists for a reason.
    Need before greed is the worst system here though. At this point in the expansion anyway. But there's people with good luck like one of the people in this thread. And there's people with garbage luck that go 2-3 runs without getting ANY upgrades. It's a huge pain. Now you can have items taken away from you because of fuckwits who think it's funny to take gear from people they will never see again. No system is perfect but personal loot is the lesser of two evils here.

  16. #16
    Already had 2 things ninjad from me (effing DKs, it's always DKs!) since they reverted it. Personal loot was fine, I don't understand the change ... :|

  17. #17
    Legendary! MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    Look at this bullshit right here, another strike against Need > Greed:



    I wasn't allowed to need on Spores of Aclarity, but the Brewmaster, Agility-using Monk, was.

    Here's the tooltip:



    So now the Need > Greed loot system just doesn't know which classes deserve which loot? It's going to let me need on Agility gear and NOT Strength gear?

    Like what in the fucking fuck. You can't just exchange one system with problems to another with even worse problems.
    Last edited by MonsieuRoberts; 2014-11-21 at 06:34 AM.
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  18. #18
    I was fan of personal loot also. I'm in raiding guild as healer and I play a lot and really enjoyed personal loot since nobody cant ninja my loot.

    Now with change, I need to make premade group every time I want to go and gear up. Most of the times this isnt possible since I play nights mostly. Trade chat might be empty but there was always some groups in LFD.

    Let me explain why I think there is problem with need before greed by making example;

    Lets say last boss of Everbloom drops "Coagulated Genesaur Blood" which is Intellect trinket with multistrike proc. This drop will be really rare with NbG loot. But since I need it as Mistweaver Monk, I ofc select need. Then we have 1 or maybe even 2 spellcasters in group. both of those need on it aswell since its good trinket for them aswell. Then there is our last dps Feral druid who decides that he might want to try boomkin/resto druid someday and needs on it aswell.

    This results that there will be a lot raging when you lose this item (even more if feral wins it) and maybe even tank can ninja need on it since he is just a full geared tank who only cares if he gets money out of run and sells item on vendor.

    After this everyone who didnt win this trinket will be doing this dungeon again since this trinket is best in slot before raids. But now there is new group, full of new needers. This trinket is from last boss so only good thing is that atleast there is 2 loot drops BUT its out of 67!!! possible loot drops. Drop chance is low and your chance of winning the loot roll 25%-50% depending of your group.

    TLDR: 67 loots from one boss which drops 1 or 2 loots for full group. There can be 1-5 needers for one item.
    Last edited by Ruthemann; 2014-11-21 at 06:50 AM. Reason: TLDR

  19. #19
    Way to fix a lot of this... go back to personal loot, but have said personal loot be tradable to people in your group. Would solve so many issues with this like someone needing loot and people who dont get all the loot, but can't give it to them so they can use it.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MonsieuRoberts View Post
    Look at this bullshit right here, another strike against Need > Greed:



    I wasn't allowed to need on Spores of Aclarity, but the Brewmaster, Agility-using Monk, was.

    Here's the tooltip:

    So now the Need > Greed loot system just doesn't know which classes deserve which loot? It's going to let me need on Agility gear and NOT Strength gear?

    Like what in the fucking fuck. You can't just exchange one system with problems to another with even worse problems.
    That blows, though not really an argument against what the Need/Greed system is supposed to be. That's just an error/bug on Blizzard's part, as that is clearly a mistake. It's entirely possible that, considering that bug, perhaps that item is flagged as not a "warrior item" internally, or is flagged as an "agility item" or whatever (despite what wowhead/wowdb/whatever that is, shows) and wouldn't show up for you under personal loot, either. I would think it's a reasonably high chance that both systems look towards the same information in determining whether you are eligible for an item. Worth a bug report to Blizzard.

    Personal loot is a far better system for PuG's. People need to get over the nonsense of not getting any loot after a run - this has happened ALL THE TIME on the previous system. Except on the previous system, some of those times were from people just stealing shit they had no reason to take, on top of just... nothing dropping that you can use. If, theoretically, the long-term chance of getting items is exactly the same in both systems, personal loot will give you more guaranteed because it removes the variable of shitheads, which are unavoidable in PuG's. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the long-term chance of getting loot in the personal loot system is actually slightly higher, with Blizzard attempting to make the system have an easier initial acceptance. People are just freaking out over change and not thinking it through fully, it's not because the system is worse.
    Last edited by Spiralphoenix; 2014-11-21 at 02:34 PM.
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