FV vs EmpS at low iLvls?

[Pandalishus]

As useful as the theorycrafting thread is, since it starts with full 660 gear it's not answering what seems to me to be the more immediate question:

What is the DPS difference between FV and EmpS at 630 (for example)? Is it negligible, or is there enough in the way of a DPS increase (say more than 1-2%) to make it worthwhile, especially when we'll start unlearning EmpS with T17 4-piece?

Can someone either point me to a particular post in that 31-page (awesome) behemoth* or maybe just answer here? A search of the forums didn't pull up anything that offers more than conjecture.


*I feel like all the thread closures are saying, in effect, "go read 600+ posts for an answer that may not be there."

[MBDTF]

While not geared with 4 pc, empowered seals performs the best on a pure single target fight, in almost any scenario out of that FV and Seraphim will do better. Given that much as you'll notice in the OP on the ret thread, the DPS difference between the builds are fairly small.

In highmaul progression you're probably going to use empowered seals on maybe 1-2 fights at max due to how scenario specific it is and how it has almost no burst offering, really good substained, but god forbid if you need to hard swap to an add on a given fight and burn it down.

[Rawrzillasor]

While not geared with 4 pc, empowered seals performs the best on a pure single target fight, in almost any scenario out of that FV and Seraphim will do better. Given that much as you'll notice in the OP on the ret thread, the DPS difference between the builds are fairly small.

In highmaul progression you're probably going to use empowered seals on maybe 1-2 fights at max due to how scenario specific it is and how it has almost no burst offering, really good substained, but god forbid if you need to hard swap to an add on a given fight and burn it down.

& the fact taht you will basically have to learn how to play a new class once you take EmpS while playing a in a new mythic raid in highmaul. i think FV is much easier to pick up and get the ball rolling while doing a good amount of dps on good proc pulls.

[Pandalishus]

Many thanks. If I can ask one more question: does the DPS gain from FV come in? When I read the tooltip, it sounds like the dmg only come from the boost to DS. The "devastating strike" deals the same dmg as the "powerful weapon strike" from TV. Is there something to the strike that's not laid out in the tooltip?

[Snuglz]

Many thanks. If I can ask one more question:

where does the DPS gain from FV come in. As I read the tooltip, it sounds like the dmg only come from the boost to DS. The "devastating strike" deals the same dmg as the "powerful weapon strike" from TV. Is there something to the strike that's not laid out in the tooltip?

I have been wondering the same thing. I am having trouble figuring out where the bonuses come in and when to use those bonus in the rotation.

[Muffinator]

FV does pure holy damage. TV does physical.

[Grognard]

Final Verdict is like Ret's old T16 four-set in that TV does pure Holy damage. Holy damage bypasses all armor and has no natural resistances. The tooltip for FV does say it deals TV's normal 200% weapon damage as Holy.

[Pandalishus]

Thanks. That was the piece I was missing. New to pally, so Holy dmg isn't something that's been a concern in the past.

Thanks again for all the responses. I feel squared away now

[Trep]

Honestly, and I say this without any animosity, I feel as if most of the responses are just "Take FV cause it's no effort." It's the same issue I have with a lot of Prot Pallys that won't even give Seraphim or EmpS a shot because Theck mentions that HS is top by a small margin (even though it was bugged in not doing dmg on attack) and because it was a purely passive ability so there was no extra effort.

You have plenty of time before progression to learn how to seal twist, and it's not even hard. Start your fight in Righteousness to get the Haste buff on the run in and swap to Truth > CS > J again to get the AP buff and stay in Truth and continue your rotation until the Haste buffs fall off (yes you want it to fall so you don't waste any of the haste on a global when you twist back to Righteousness). Judge in Righteousness and continue your rotation, swap back to truth when ever you get a free global or right before your Censure falls to maintain your dot. As the damage between the seals are the same so the only difference is one cleaves and one refreshes a passive DoT so staying in Righteousness until you get a free global isn't going to hurt. In a 2+ target fight you'll just stay in Righteousness at all times and go to Truth only to refresh the AP buff.

It's very simple, it just looks like a lot of work on paper. I recommend swapping to it for 2-3 days and practice. It's very rewarding and any respectable player should be willing to learn every way to play their character. If EmpS was awful dmg then I would agree with the rest but it's actually quite good! You just have to be willing ot put forth the effort (and use Weak Auras >.> ).

[Pandalishus]

I agree with the principle of your statement, Trep (and thanks for wording it civilly). That said, if seal-twisting isn't bringing any significant benefit and will even be worse DPS in a few months, I'd rather just dump the "brain power" into learning how to best use the utility that pally brings. We'll be jumping into Highmaul in a week and a half and I don't want to fret about dropping Righteousness when I could be fretting about getting hands out to the right people, tossing extra heals, laying hands on whoever needs it, etc. If I can do those and not suffer much DPS, that's the path I'll take. Now if EmpS somehow sims to be 5-10% more DPS, I'm all on it. But if we're talking the difference between, say, 18k and 18.2k, I don't know that I see the benefit.

But yes, I have tried seal-twisting for a few days and it's just not appealing to me. That said, it is kind of sad that learning a mechanic like EmpS doesn't bring more of a reward. Blizzard seems to have an aversion to rewarding mastery of high(er)-skill rotations.

[promithius]

I've been running FV at 630-635 ilvl and for the content we are doing now, it feels fantastic.

2+ targets, weave FV + DS. EmpDS also comes up, I have been saving that proc if I dont have the FV buff until I can refresh that, unless its going to fall off before I get to the 3 HP. Sometimes you'll refresh the EmpDS buff with the FV but id rather risk it and get a double buffed DS off than a 50% buffed.

ST - FV spam, dont weave in DS as even with the 100% its still less damage on 1 target. However, if you have EmpDS and FV buff up, use it. Its free and hits hard enough to be worth the global. Again, I refresh the FV buff to go with it unless the proc will run out before I get get it up (hur hur).

I tried EmpS for a while when I first hit 90. I like the play style and it adds some depth, but it just dosent feel as fun to me as weaving and watching your procs and buffs. Running FV with DP can result in some very, very satisfying proc streaks. My record so far is 13 free finishers in a row (FV procing DP which procs DP and EmpDS which procs EmpDS which procs EmpDS and DP and on and on and on)

[Trep]

Don't get me wrong. You will do fine with FV+DP even in current gear level. EmpS+SW only sims 300 higher than FV+DP. It's just that I am the kinda person who wants to be that 300 more DPS than the other Rets I may competing against for raid spot. Especially since FV+DP only over comes EmpS+SW at T17 4pc. Blackrock Foundry won't be coming out for at least 6 weeks, then I HIGHLY doubt that I or anyone will get 4pc right off the bat, though I have heard of stranger things. So, I would rather learn the rotation that is going to keep me ahead of the rest of the pack on the charts for the next 2-3 months. Especially since it doesn't take much to do FV+DP. It's pretty much the exact same thing as 5.4

- - - Updated - - -

Sometimes you'll refresh the EmpDS buff with the FV but id rather risk it and get a double buffed DS off than a 50% buffed.

I believe it was simed to be a DPS loss if you did this but I can't be too sure. I THINK it was said to be higher DPS just to spam DS.

[Crithea]

I think my favorite part about the whole thing is how they crafted 3 completely different playstyles, Seal-Twisting SoB/SoComm from BC is back, Inquisition in the form of Seraphim, and Divine Purpose + Extra Hammer Smash FV for high visceral reward. I really have to give props to whoever is doing balance design for Rets, they're doing a very good job at making sure all styles of play are "worth" it.

[Grognard]

Seraphim is not like Inquisition except that it requires Holy Power. It's not a maintenance buff; it's a burst cooldown. In that regard, it's more akin to one of the older incarnations of Zealotry (ancestor to Holy Avenger) which originally consumed HoPo to activate.

[Crithea]

Ugh, Zealotry, don't remind me. I'm so glad my crusade against that talent got somewhere, but you are right, it is kinda of both those more-so than Inq, but still feels somewhat like Inq as well.

[Pandalishus]

Don't get me wrong. You will do fine with FV+DP even in current gear level. EmpS+SW only sims 300 higher than FV+DP. It's just that I am the kinda person who wants to be that 300 more DPS than the other Rets I may competing against for raid spot. Especially since FV+DP only over comes EmpS+SW at T17 4pc. Blackrock Foundry won't be coming out for at least 6 weeks, then I HIGHLY doubt that I or anyone will get 4pc right off the bat, though I have heard of stranger things. So, I would rather learn the rotation that is going to keep me ahead of the rest of the pack on the charts for the next 2-3 months. Especially since it doesn't take much to do FV+DP. It's pretty much the exact same thing as 5.4

Makes perfect sense.