Is it OK to play Arcane over Frost in WoD?

[Polarthief]

Things will get better once we are at a good haste and multistrike levels, at least that's my opinion. Should at least decrease the unfortunate RNG periods were you get nothing from procs.

This doesn't fix core design issues though. This also doesn't make our L100 talents any less shitty

[Komman]

Things will get better once we are at a good haste and multistrike levels, at least that's my opinion. Should at least decrease the unfortunate RNG periods were you get nothing from procs.

Haste doesn't cause less variance. In fact, I'd argue that it causes more variance, simply because of how it shortens the burn duration and reduces the number of spells casted. Less spells = higher variance.

The core issue with Arcane's variance is the extreme benefit Arcane Missiles has over Arcane Blast; Not only does it always do more damage, but it's also mana positive, which causes huge swings on how many AB4s you cast in a given fight. The only solution to this would be to make AM less desirable than AB while burning mana, which requires some big mechanic changes.

[Deleted]

I dont know. After the minor arcane blast buff my arcane toon looks a lot more better. I haven't raced against frost mage, but i dont plan to do it at all, because the environment in hc dungeons and nuking the training dummie are 2 completely different thing from raid environments.
Also it is worth mentioning that Arcane spec is heavy dependent on raid buffs to show its potential. Right now all my gear is heavy haste/mastery only my wrist and trinkets dont give mastery, so im quite confident in my personal performance in the first lockout.
As a lot of people said frost might have amazing burst, but with overpowered arcane burst is not so bad at all and from what i have seen on some of the longer hc fights in the current dungeons i have done more sustained damage than most classes and specs.
From what i have read and talking with fellow mages i think that frost and arcane will be quite equal specs for starter raiding.
Again it is worth mentioning that personal performance from mage to mage will depend also on their current gear, because that random warforged/sokets/etc will influence the performance for every spec and class.

Just my opinion overall on the matter - just because someone said somewhere on the XXX forums/blogs/guides/etc, or that spec XXX sim higher than other doesn't mean that this is the best spec for the class. Today's reality is that each personal performance during raids is heavy dependent on many factors - current gear, current spec skill, current raiding expirience, current knowledge of the fight, raid group, RNG, even assignments for mechanics and how you handle them.

Play the spec you believe you have the gear and/or the skill for it. If a RL want to bench you, because you play something different than the spec that the theory say it's best (unless u are aiming for world 10/50/100/etc), then this RL sucks as a leader and he is more of a douche

[Deleted]

The latest simcraft results on iLvl630 are showing about a 500 DPS difference between frost and arcane. If you're part of a guild that is full of min/maxers then I'm sure you knew that you were signing up to that when you joined the guild, as they're usually very picky on applications. For that sort of difference, personally I'd just say play what you enjoy, as this is far more likely to have an overall effect on your performance.

People always do better at what they want to do than what they're being told to do.

[CombatJack]

Armanstrator said it best. Play what you enjoy. I love Arcane and I do more dps with that than with Frost because I just don't like playing Frost. When I play Arcane I play better overall.

[zomgDPS]

The latest simcraft results on iLvl630 are showing about a 500 DPS difference between frost and arcane. If you're part of a guild that is full of min/maxers then I'm sure you knew that you were signing up to that when you joined the guild, as they're usually very picky on applications. For that sort of difference, personally I'd just say play what you enjoy, as this is far more likely to have an overall effect on your performance.

Actually, this is just flatout wrong.

If you are a player in "min/max-top-of-the-line-guilds" you will actually be able to minimize the negative impact of Arcane much more so than a 'regular' player, since you will (by definition) be much more capable of minimizing your movement.

If you aren't a super elite player, you will actually get demolished if you played Arcane, at least with respect to your own performance as Frost.


What you mages are, yet again, being wilfully ignorant of, is that the "sims" numbers you see for Arcane are for scenarios where there is no movement and no fight mechanics at play. In short, it is a scenario that actually does not exist.


For any real situation, you will have to at least move. And the one sure fact that is blatantly obvious if you actually know how to use simcraft and not just inaccurately regurgitate some nonsense about what you think it does, is that the rate of Arcane's throughput degradation increases faster than any other spec in the game as you get closer to real raiding. You can see this phenomena first hand by actually using simcraft and not just repeating context-less bullsh!te when you deem fit.

In simpler terms, this means that Arcane suffers the most from mechanics, and that its throughput will degrade much more than the same mechanic would degrade any other spec. Couple this with the fact that 'average' players are inherently more incompetant that elite ones, 'average' players will actually get 'hurt' more by playing Arcane badly.

So while the copy-pasta simcraft results may show 500DPS, the actual difference between the two is exponentially larger.


Not to mention, Arcane isn't keeping up with Frost in the ideal sims in the first place, nor is it even fractionally as capable in AoE or cleave situations (it is the worst out of all mage specs in both), add to which the knowledge that the new upcoming tier will have significant cleave/AoE fights.


So no, the "play whatever you want" is a foolish outlook.

Now sure, you can physically go into a raid with your guild and be Arcane, but know that in doing so you are literally relying on other people to carry you. You will, again willingly, be choosing your own selfishness over the greater good of 20-30 other people. Sure, your guild might be 'ok' with carrying you, but know that you are indeed being a burden.

Similarly, you can walk into a raid without a spec chosen and just spam FFB and fireblasts into the boss. Sure, some guilds might let their mages do that, that doesn't mean it is either acceptable or right.


If you truly were loyal to your guild, you would play your class to the maximum of its ability whether or not you were a top tier elite raider or not. Its the right and fair thing to do. The alternative, of just "playing whatever you want" is just painfully selfish and I really do not know how people feel so free to give advice that basically amounts to "fuck your guild, do whatever you want, rely on your guild to make up for your own incompetence".

Play whatever and however you wish if you are playing alone, but as soon as you are taking up other peoples' time, you better be at your best, otherwise, imho, you are nothing more than just another selfish douche. Choice is yours.

[Deleted]

Thing is this @zomg: You're about 50% right. The entire analysis of the difficulties of arcane is spot-on. The speccs with the most "difficult" (for lack of a better word) rotation/throughput should, in theory, be at the very top of Patchwerk-simulations, whereas say, Hunters, should never be on top for the same reason. If all works out, in the end everyone should be at a comparable level of performance within a realistic raid setting. This never works though. It's the same thing that made Rune of Power impossible to balance: if it is at all possible to bypass movement-mechanics and maximize DPS-output, top-guilds will find these ways, and everything designed with a heavy movement-penalty in mind will be overperforming heavily (even though most raiders wouldn't be able to pull similar numbers). This problem is something that won't go away, so the best we can hope for is some bandaid-fixes to bring Arcane back up a bit.

Now, for your second part: I understand your perspective, and it is certainly valid. Not being a burden to your friends should certainly be a concern for everyone playing this game. But that doesn't mean someone is "disloyal" to his guildmates if he isn't playing a certain way. What is important is that everyone in a raid agrees on what their goals are and how they want to achieve them. So of course, progress-raiding-guilds will agree that every single thing that is possible to achieve a bosskill should be done, and refusing to do that just means that a player is in the wrong guild.
But other guilds can have other metrics for succcess beyond just killing bosses. Of course, as long as we're talking about raids, killing bosses will always be a concern, so some level of performance should be expectable of everyone (thus dismissing your example of not taking any specc for raiding). But fun and happyness of some individuals might have a higher priority in some guilds, and that is totally acceptable. So, if you're a group of friends raiding for fun, and you all agree that you don't take stuff too seriously, it shouldn't be a problem if someone is playing a specc he/she enjoys more mechanically.

More importantly though: This isn't even a realistic debate for most guilds. For 90% of all raids happening in WoW, the difference of potential DPS between two mage-speccs would never be a concern. Outside of progress-raiding, specc choice is almost never the issue that is causing raid-wipes. Of course, sometimes there are utterly broken speccs which just won't work at all, but Arcane isn't at that spot right now.
Poor DPS-output might be an issue in many raids, but more often than not, that is a problem of the individual player, not the specc. That's why so many people give the advice for others to "play what you feel good with". Because that will actually allow them to perform better than forcing them into something they are uncomfortable with.

Now, if you hit a barrier with your raid at some point and feel that you want to progress further, or if you feel you want to apply for a better raid etc., it might be a good idea to invest a bit of work to learn some new skills, or maybe a new specc, to help progression. Thats a good thing. But as long as everyone is happy with where their raid is, there is very little reason to be dismissive about a specc-choice which, in the grand total of things, is actually only a fairly minor concern for a raid as a whole.

[Mormolyce]

Apparently Frost has way more mobility and higher dps. The only spell I see that is instant is Ice Lance? And I suppose the pet continually does damage.

You do Ice Lance a fair bit, provided it procs. Mobility is arguable I guess.

As for DPS, only way to know is to test it. Run five dungeons as Arcane and five as Frost and compare logs? Or target dummies.

[Frost1129]

Actually, this is just flatout wrong.
WORDS

[zomgDPS]

But as long as everyone is happy with where their raid is, there is very little reason to be dismissive about a specc-choice which, in the grand total of things, is actually only a fairly minor concern for a raid as a whole.

As I said, being happy is very subjective, and if you are happy doing it, you can even consider not picking a spec and going into raids with nothing but your FFB to save you, and bosses can still die. All of that is possible, and so is your happiness.

But don't make it out to be some kind of objective truth when it isn't, that is my point. If the "its only yours and your raids happiness that matters" is the core driver for you to play, than anything works (and you are probably wasting your own time on 'elitist' forums like these). WoW just is no longer the game which needed any baselines skill to attain 'happiness'. This is by design.

However, if you want to compete in an effort to overcome challenge to the best that you can (along with 20-30 other friends), then the objective truth matters; which is what I am saying.

In that objective truth, you should play Frost for tomorrow's tier. It really is that simple. /shrug

[whisperingsage]

While I agree that arcane's really in a shitty place if it can't even sim higher than frost on a patchwerk fight, does that also mean that raids won't be taking any warriors or locks? They're under even fire on the sims.

Not trying to be snarky, just wondering how far min/max extends.

[Crackleslap]

I'm doing the same dps as Arcane and Frost (when I don't proc like a god). When I'm arcane I can sustain the amount of dps I do.

With frost I can either swing X% above the average or dip well below the average. I almost feel like Arcane is more viable.

But when you do proc like a god, you dps like a god as Frost.

[Erolian]

While I agree that arcane's really in a shitty place if it can't even sim higher than frost on a patchwerk fight, does that also mean that raids won't be taking any warriors or locks? They're under even fire on the sims.

Not trying to be snarky, just wondering how far min/max extends.

Usually it isn't a good idea to compare multiple classes to each other via simcraft. You'd basically be depending on each individual module to be perfect or pretty damn close to it which is pretty much never the case. I'd even say comparing within a single class is usually pretty iffy to begin with.

[Frost1129]

Usually it isn't a good idea to compare multiple classes to each other via simcraft. You'd basically be depending on each individual module to be perfect or pretty damn close to it which is pretty much never the case. I'd even say comparing within a single class is usually pretty iffy to begin with.

Mages are more than ok to do this with atm.

[Deleted]

Your not a very good mage if you only know your way around one spec. Personally I find frost much more enjoyable than arcane could ever be. Arcane is a viable on low movement single target fights but frost is equal and better on everything else. If your guild wants you to play your best spec clearly it matters to them, it should matter to you to play the most optimal spec?

Besides once data starts rolling in I imagine buffs and nerfs will start flying around but as it currently stands frost is objectively better and your being purely selfish by not rolling it for your raid. I would love to be able to play fire, unfortunately if you take raiding seriously then you go with the best spec.

[Deleted]

In every single situation frost is better then arcane no matter what.

[Deleted]

But don't make it out to be some kind of objective truth when it isn't, that is my point. If the "its only yours and your raids happiness that matters" is the core driver for you to play, than anything works (and you are probably wasting your own time on 'elitist' forums like these). WoW just is no longer the game which needed any baselines skill to attain 'happiness'. This is by design.

However, if you want to compete in an effort to overcome challenge to the best that you can (along with 20-30 other friends), then the objective truth matters; which is what I am saying.

In that objective truth, you should play Frost for tomorrow's tier. It really is that simple. /shrug

I get your irritation at people making Arcane out to be objectively equal to frost for raiding, when no, it isn't. I'm not one of these people, and I agree with you: Right now, with every metric disposable to theorycrafting and pretty much all of our experience in terms of raiding, Frost is better, and that is that.

What I was getting at was your notion that somehow, you're being a bad raidmember (heck, by your words even a bad person) for making a different choice based on these facts. It's not correct to somehow claim that Arcane is a more viable raiding specc. But it is a reasonable statement to say: "I enjoy playing Arcane more, and specc choice makes a minuscule difference in the success of our non-top100-raid, so I should be fine playing it." It is perfectly possible to be in a guild, make a (hopefully) informed decision about your specc and still decide in favor of something that, by objective measures, is inferior.

Good raids are not always the raids which kill most bosses, but raids which understand what their members want, and act accordingly. Thats why most raids don't demand their members to reroll classes in between contents, even if they might be "objectively better". Thats why they might not ask every raider to spend 300k gold in BoEs for comparably minor upgrades. Thats why it is important we don't shame people for making specc choices based on metrics such as "fun" or "enjoyment", because these, intangible as they seem, are most often factors more important to the overall success of a raid than theoretical DPS. Saying that this is a disloyal thing to do, even at a moderate level of progression, is just being radical for shock value. Every raider except at the absolute top makes some tradeoffs, and choices which aren't always the very best they can be for the raid. Thats a matter of degrees, and specc choice is just one of those.

Instead of shaming, I think it's better to help people make informed decisions. If the question is: "is Arcane ok to play", the answer shouldn't be: "no, it's objectively worse". It should be: "Yes, but it's objectively worse". So don't call someone disloyal to his raid for making a specc choice, call him disloyal if he is not honoring the agreements his raid has on what they believe is necessary for a raider. If we foster a mentality that pushes people away for peripheral issues, we just foster a hostile culture within the game and these forums.

[Deleted]

In every single situation frost is better then arcane no matter what.

People and their oppinions these days...
Why is everything based on some theory, simulation, and beta testing?!? Can someone explain me this? Actualy no... noone can. Atleast not objectively.
Anyway... we shall see what is true in the first week of raiding. BUT people must remember that Blizzard themselves said that there will a damage tuning after the first week, after they get the raiding data.
So why people argue is a such stupid way about frost or arcane or fire?!? EVERYTHING will be tuned/bandaid fixed/buffed/etc on 9.12.14. Then... THEN it wount matter that much what spec u are. Then it will all depend on you and your raiding experience and skill and that's it.
It is like saying to a blacksmith "Don't use that hammer you are used to with which u make such fine weapons and armors. Use the biggest and the heaviest hammer, because its bigger and heavier." It's absurd...


P.S. and one more thing about that stupid statement that spec XXX is superior than spec XXX on movement fight - bull shit. And i will tell you why - every single raid mechanic have a set are of effect. As arcane mage with RoP it is more than enough to run to the outer edge of that mechanic and continue nuking from there. You dont need to run in China when boss target you with random shizzle and in most cases it is actually good to stand right next to that pool of shit than runing to totaly random place in the room and the boss target you again with the same shit and eventual the whole room gets flooded with random pools of shit that must be avoided and making the otherwise easy fight into wipe.
I am not going ot mention tools like Blink, Blazing/Ice floes, Inviz, Ice block - epic tools that allow you to minimize movement due mechanic targeting you or completly ignoring it, even interupting it with Inviz.
And what about frost have 3 charges of ice lances that can be used on the move? What about fire having to use scorch on the move and occasional pyro proc?
The right question what does frost mage do when his IL charges are gone or even worse - when he dont have any charges and he is forced to run?
What does a fire mage do with his wet noodle scorch and his pyros every 6 seconds when on the move?
They do exactly the same as arcane mage - running and positioning again to cast another frost/fireball to get some of the procs they so much need to maintain their dps.
But what does an arcane mage do after the run? He cast new RoP and then release his stored AM charges or casting again his 4 stacks AB (assuming he was not stupid enough to discharge with Barrage while running). Over all the only time wasted is the cast time of new RoP (some smarter mages even precast that stuff)
I am not saying that arcane is better than frost or fire, but arcane is the hardest of the 3 mage specs. You actually need brain and almost exceptional encounter knowledge and self awareness during the fight to be able to reduce the impact of movement on a turret spec like arcane, but as one wise man said " thinking is the hardest job there is, that's why less and less people work it", so people go the easy way and choose fire and frost. It has less impact on their fun in the game.
I personally like how arcane work, how challenging spec it is and what satisfaction it brings when i outperform that frost/fire mage or that retardedly buffed warlock

[Armbre]

I understand what you guys are saying about having fun and playing your favorite spec but unfortunately frost is the highest right now, i would love love love to see the other two specs be viable but knowing blizzard and raiding since kara i know that mages will have pretty much one spec that is best one thats okayish and a garbage, frost was the garbage for the longest time and arcane was only really viable for a bit in wrath and most of cata, so fire being in the pits is blizz just being blizz.

But not playing the best spec for a raid is kinda crappy, i mean if you really want to be the guy who brings chips to the superbowl party go ahead but people perfer the guy who brings hot wings and beer.

[Alroxas]

People and their oppinions these days...
Why is everything based on some theory, simulation, and beta testing?!? Can someone explain me this? Actualy no... noone can. Atleast not objectively.

This makes no sense. We have theorycrafters who are taking raw data that we have and figuring out a mathematical model to generate output which is used to determine potential output based on standardizing certain factors. It's fairly objective since it's mostly all math based. Some guessing is needed since players don't have the actual formulas that Blizzard has.

The problem has always been that the standard used (which simplifies computation) is a model that you very rarely see in actual raid environments (i.e. Patchwork style fights where DPS don't have to move at all). In fact, the closest fight we have in Highmaul would be the Butcher but even then it's slightly flawed since DPS is supposed to move a tiny bit to deal with a particular mechanic.

P.S. and one more thing about that stupid statement that spec XXX is superior than spec XXX on movement fight - bull shit. And i will tell you why - every single raid mechanic have a set are of effect.

Not really, if we assume all things being equal and just look at how spec mechanics are supposed to work, then we can readily see how certain abilities (and the way they are coded) can provide a distinct advantage over another spec. Yes there are exceptions and if we were to dive into specific scenarios you could make cases where X could dominate over Y or vice versa. But here you're looking at specifics and partially stacking the deck to your favor (we all have personal bias).