Massively Writer Thinks MMOs Should Just Drop Raiding Altogether

[Attackrabbit]

Guy is spot on. Just normalize rewards between solo/small-group content, crafting and raiding and you see who's left raiding for raid's sake: virtually nobody.

Won't fully happen as long as companies continue to recruit at least some devs from among 24/7 raitards, but the last silly hardcore game imploding in record time certainly went a long way sending the correct message.

Every guild I've been in has raided for raiding's sake. Gear and titles are a nice bonus but I've always raided (and raided with people who raid) for the accomplishment of bringing a hard boss down through teamwork with people you enjoy spending time playing with.

[Deleted]

imagine, you go into a restaurant, and if you choose to study and memorize the recipe for each meal you gain access to better meals and also theres a room to the side where you battle people by cooking against them and if you beat them you gain restaurhonor

Your logic is flawed unless you are competing with 24 other people for a meal and have to work together as team to make the meal happen to begin with.

[fangless]

Yes, they should drop it. Trying to copy silly models from WoW to make your MMO is what everyone's been doing for nearly 10 years now.
Don't implement the same exact shell of an "end game" and expect it to work. It won't :P

Honestly, I would be glad if any new up and coming MMO just stopped production and gave up. The well of creativity has long been tapped.

[Deleted]

Those awful analogies. Here's a better one (that I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking about, due to how many BAD raiding-analogies there are):

Everyone pays the same for a library card, and anyone can pick up and read the words in Dante's Inferno. But to actually understand the damn thing, and thus make good use of the access, requires the reader to have a better understanding of language and prose than The Hunger Games does. But everyone is granted permission to pick up the book and look at the words.

Eh? Eh? Pretty damn proud o' that one, meself.

It still isn't perfect, but a lot better then what some people are posting.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, they should drop it. Trying to copy silly models from WoW to make your MMO is what everyone's been doing for nearly 10 years now.
Don't implement the same exact shell of an "end game" and expect it to work. It won't :P

Honestly, I would be glad if any new up and coming MMO just stopped production and gave up. The well of creativity has long been tapped.

Let's stop making shooters, RPG's, RTS and every other genre that's been done before as well.

[Kolvarg]

The analogy is all off. Everyone has access to raids. Content is not being denied to anyone - People choose not to do the content.

This. A more decent analogy would be:

You pay for a football, but you don't have friends to play with. You're not getting the same fun as the guy who bought the same football for the same price but knows enough people to play with. Doesn't mean his ball has more value than yours.



Imo the way to go is not so much about dropping raids but also giving people who don't like to raid other paths to follow. Brawler's Guild for instance is a step in that direction, and a good one I think. So are CMs. Other than that I really don't think I ever thought or heard of any decent solutions that fit the game.

Like already mentioned, no one is forcing you to pay, and no one is denying you acces to raiding (in fact it's been easier and easier with each xpac).

[rangore]

what a joke. the only way people would continue to play would be to release increasingly difficult content of what, 5 mans? as in wiping 50-100+ times to beat a 5 man encounter? its impossible to balance that, group A could fit that, but group B would one shot it with better group comp. Raiders, and many more people play because the game is a challenge to overcome (and is fun). the only way to do that, is working together in a large group against difficult bosses.

or pvp, which i do enjoy, but pve is equally entertaining to me.

[Deleted]

Saying that "MMO's" should drop raiding is like saying "vehicles" should drop flying. Just because cars are much more
popular doesn't make flying meaningless. Sure airplanes are much more expensive but they serve a completely different
purpose than cars even tho they both fall to "vehicle" category.

Genre for a game is a package or a container to deliver the experience. There can be two games of the same genre
catering to completely different audiences. It all depends on what the developer decides to put on that container. MMO's
are a great container as you can fit so much stuff in it. That's exactly why WoW manages to have such a huge subscriber
count. It caters to a very wide audience. The people who are raiding usually are very enthusiastic and vocal about their
experience too. Their opinion of the game holds more value than just the money they bring in with their subscription.

I'm sure you can make a fine MMO with no raid content, but I don't think the article is very good. Especially the netflix
comparison is just flat out stupid. The reason why I ever got into raiding was exactly what it tries to bring to negative
light. People who had access to the "exclusive" content telling me how awesome it was. I was enjoying my time already
and decided to push myself to raiding because people I knew told me that it was the shit.

I agree that if you are making a new MMO, you shouldn't spend a lot of resources trying to cater to the raiding audience
of WoW. They are the ones who have used thousands of hours on the game and are heavily invested. And it's very unlikely
that you will be able to deliver more solid raiding experience than Blizzard. But at the same time I think even if a minority
of WoW players are raiding, losing the vocal enthusiastic part of the community would hurt WoW significantly. I'm pretty sure
Blizzard are aware of this option and they have estimated the impact and the risks and have came to the conclusion it would
hurt them a lot.

TL;DR
New MMO's shouldn't try to cater to raiders.
WoW is not dropping raiding anytime soon.
I think the article is kinda shitty.

[ponies]

Raids are more accessible than ever.
Not to mention when raids are available to everyone its not fun.

There are versions of the same raid for people that want to see content.
and for people who want to challenge that content.
I think raiding is the best its ever been to be honest.

A big part of WoW's success is due to the fact that it offers quality raiding content that many players can't find in other games. yes this is subjective but it has been my personal experience.

[cFortyfive]

While that guy seems to be a fucking retard he isn't completely wrong. It wouldn't hurt the fiscal aspect. Just make a sims/facebook browser whatever shit game and rake in the millions.

Guy is spot on. Just normalize rewards between solo/small-group content, crafting and raiding and you see who's left raiding for raid's sake: virtually nobody.

See how many people log on for more than 5 minutes if you can gear up completely doing follower missions from an app.

[nocturnus]

Okay, without all the hostility now.

Why is it that so few people raid? (mind you now, I'm not speaking of LFR, which isn't in the slightest enjoyable for most)

I don't think it's the difficulty per sé. It's the logistics involved and the pressure to be there which exists because the logistics are tough to manage (see the vicious circle?).

Now what if they removed raiding in it's current form and started investing, actually investing, in dungeons. Designing them with the level of detail, passion and mechanical complexity of say of the warlock green fire boss. I think and I don't have any data to back this up since it's a gut feeling, that much more players would engage in this PvE content.

Normal modes for those who want to see the content and relax, heroic modes for those who need the extra challenge. You could say: "but that's already in place!". But I'm not speaking of our current heroic dungeons, because let's be honest, those aren't hard - at all.

This way, they could completely remove the ridicule that is LFR, they could add new content more frequently - e.g. a new dungeon every 2 months and there would be more competition in general.

Unless you think that the quantity of players involved defines the 'epicness' of the relevant content this could work really, really well.

Again, please guys, hold off the hostility. We're conversing and nothing more.

[barackopala]

Every guild I've been in has raided for raiding's sake. Gear and titles are a nice bonus but I've always raided (and raided with people who raid) for the accomplishment of bringing a hard boss down through teamwork with people you enjoy spending time playing with.

Fuck yeah, i dont care about what gear you have or titles, raiding is fun for me due to the pve enviroment, the storyline behind the boss and how the mechanics convey complexity to the players involved, Ulduar <3~

[nocturnus]

Fuck yeah, i dont care about what gear you have or titles, raiding is fun for me due to the pve enviroment, the storyline behind the boss and how the mechanics convey complexity to the players involved, Ulduar <3~

Would you enjoy it less, if content providing the same challenge would involve 4 or 5 other players, rather than 19 others? If so, why?

[Dorfadin]

What an idiot that massively writer is, my friends and I play mmo's for raiding primarily, have done since EQ back in 2003, it's a lot of fun.

[barackopala]

Would you enjoy it less, if content providing the same challenge would involve 4 or 5 other players, rather than 19 others? If so, why?

Where did i say that i wanted 20 players or an arbitrary number? please do quote me on that one, if anything my last post on this topic was that i didnt like 25 man raiding, i like 10man way more or 5 man, but numbers are far from important when the discussion is if raiding is important or not for an mmo.

[nocturnus]

Where did i say that i wanted 20 players or an arbitrary number? please do quote me on that one, if anything my last post on this topic was that i didnt like 25 man raiding, i like 10man way more or 5 man, but numbers are far from important when the discussion is if raiding is important or not for an mmo.

I didn't say anything about what you said. I asked you a question, that's all.

What an idiot that massively writer is, my friends and I play mmo's for raiding primarily, have done since EQ back in 2003, it's a lot of fun.

Why is he an idiot? Isn't it true that your friends and you, are part of WoW's vocal minority?

[Frozenbeef]

No, i hate organised raiding but it's pretty much ingrained into mmos now for better or for worse.

[nocturnus]

No, i hate organised raiding but it's pretty much ingrained into mmos now for better or for worse.

It is and he's simply questioning whether is should. Quite frankly, he presents pretty damn compelling arguments against raiding.

I remember getting flamed and called names in the wildstar thread, when I said their raiding philosophy would eventually fail (because numbers in other mmo's showed how few actually participate). With mythic raiding bumped up to 20 man, I predict the same thing in WoW.

There's a reason FFXIV is doing relatively well. 'Competitive' raiding is limited to 8 players and everything is doable with a casual approach.

[Chickat]

Part of me agrees, and part of me doesn't. I think scaling down raids to be 5-8 bosses every 4 months instead of 12-18 every 6-7 would be best. Little bit less work that could be put to making more content for the average man or woman. If I had 2 new dungeons and 7 new bosses every 4 months over a 14 boss raid and no dungeons every 6 I would take the latter every time. I miss dungeons being relevant. Tbh, I would just phase lfr out all together. and incentive normal people to either go into normal which is Icc 10 man nerfed easy now, or do the dungeons they are getting every 3-6 months. It would be an interesting experiment to see how subs reacted to that.

[Miloscub]

Analogy of analogy of an analogy in this thread....
OT- Must be a baddie that stands in fire @ Massively Writer.
Everyone has access to all content,join a guild ,start an organised pug group,...buy a boost? idk. Raids are gated by only how much time you want to put in your character,and how much you want to progress (raiding). He sounds like a 5 year old kid that wants everything handed to him for no effort

[nocturnus]

Analogy of analogy of an analogy in this thread....
OT- Must be a baddie that stands in fire @ Massively Writer.
Everyone has access to all content,join a guild ,start an organised pug group,...buy a boost? idk. Raids are gated by only how much time you want to put in your character,and how much you want to progress (raiding). He sounds like a 5 year old kid that wants everything handed to him for no effort

Why the hostility? Have you read the thread? I didn't notice his need to be granted access to free rewards. Notice the bolded, contrary to popular belief, a great deal of players have families, jobs and other interests. According to the numbers most people do not raid and who are you to say it's because they're 'baddies'? Maybe (and most likely) they want to play a game and not have a second job.

Can anyone tell me what the worst case scenario would be if blizzard would completely remove raids and invest in dungeons and other aspects of the game, considering the fact that less than 10% of the entire community raids?