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  1. #701
    For those that have the Blackhand trinket, do you monitor the proc? Do you prioritize spells to use to get the most out of the haste?

  2. #702
    So I was looking through a handful of the top 10 parses for the mythic BRF fights and I've noticed that LB uptime is low. Wowhead coefficients and napkin math shows LB doing ~551% of your SP over 15 seconds while rejuv (with germination) doing 325.2% over 18 seconds. LB also will bloom for another 200% if you let it fall off.

    These numbers show LB CLEARLY beating rejuv in the HPS category. It even beats rejuv in the HPM category (LB is .38~ SP per mana without bloom, rejuv is .11~ SP per mana). There's also the added benefit of OoC procs. Rejuv only has two benefits over LB from what I can tell: it enables you to use swiftmend and you can speed it up with genesis.

    Even in a case where you're chain spamming rejuvs, casting a LB if there is none active is both more mana efficient and more HPS (esp. now that 1 sec GCD is gone) than casting another rejuv. I can't imagine NOT having an active rejuv to swiftmend off of ever being an issue. Even in that case you could do rejuv > swiftmend > LB > rejuv blanket

    One downside I noticed about LB was that it on average had more overhealing than rejuv (35% for LB compared to 10% for rejuv), but I'd imagine that's because people are leaving LB on a tank instead of weaving it into their rejuv spamming.

    So my question is: am I missing something? With all of this napkin math (which can most certainly be faulty, and if it is please call me out on it), I can't imagine why people aren't having near 100% uptime on LB. The only thing I could think of is mana being a HUGE issue and the low uptime is from druids not casting anything AT ALL in between high damage phases (but I'm not familiar enough with mythic yet to make that judgment call.) However, in that case then shouldn't rejuv's uptime be lower than LB? Cause it never seems to be that way from the logs I've looked at.

    I guess there's also the other (more obvious) answer being we're humans and we make mistakes/can't always play perfect. But even then... with things like weakauras, grid, tellmewhen, etc. But even then...
    Last edited by wombats23; 2015-02-26 at 12:25 AM.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    So I was looking through a handful of the top 10 parses for the mythic BRF fights and I've noticed that LB uptime is low. Wowhead coefficients and napkin math shows LB doing ~551% of your SP over 15 seconds while rejuv (with germination) doing 325.2% over 18 seconds. LB also will bloom for another 200% if you let it fall off.

    These numbers show LB CLEARLY beating rejuv in the HPS category. It even beats rejuv in the HPM category (LB is .38~ SP per mana without bloom, rejuv is .11~ SP per mana). There's also the added benefit of OoC procs. Rejuv only has two benefits over LB from what I can tell: it enables you to use swiftmend and you can speed it up with genesis.

    Even in a case where you're chain spamming rejuvs, casting a LB if there is none active is both more mana efficient and more HPS (esp. now that 1 sec GCD is gone) than casting another rejuv. I can't imagine NOT having an active rejuv to swiftmend off of ever being an issue. Even in that case you could do rejuv > swiftmend > LB > rejuv blanket

    One downside I noticed about LB was that it on average had more overhealing than rejuv (35% for LB compared to 10% for rejuv), but I'd imagine that's because people are leaving LB on a tank instead of weaving it into their rejuv spamming.

    So my question is: am I missing something? With all of this napkin math (which can most certainly be faulty, and if it is please call me out on it), I can't imagine why people aren't having near 100% uptime on LB. The only thing I could think of is mana being a HUGE issue and the low uptime is from druids not casting anything AT ALL in between high damage phases (but I'm not familiar enough with mythic yet to make that judgment call.) However, in that case then shouldn't rejuv's uptime be lower than LB? Cause it never seems to be that way from the logs I've looked at.

    I guess there's also the other (more obvious) answer being we're humans and we make mistakes/can't always play perfect. But even then... with things like weakauras, grid, tellmewhen, etc. But even then...

    The thing is - the #1 reason why near 100% LB uptime was mandatory before 6.0 is it having 3 stacks made it such a throughput penalty if you let it fall off/let it bloom. You had to consciously keep extending it, which kept it at a very high uptime. With the current single stack LB, there really isn't any reason to extend it unless you otherwise want to cast a single target heal on that target. If you don't need that, you may as well just let it bloom and recast it your earliest convenience.

    However, if you let it bloom, you will still have it down for a second or two at least while you get off GCD and recast it. Plus, it definitely isn't worth delaying casting a SoTF-WG if its up (and worth casting) to get Lifebloom up a few extra seconds earlier, so you may prioritize recasting it a few seconds down the line instead of immediately, which adds to further down time. When you consider these factors, the old standard of 98%+ LB uptime doesn't really apply anymore, and somewhere in the low 90% range is perfectly reasonable for LB uptime.

    Also, if you are casting DoC Wraths during a low damage phase, or using HoTW for DPS, it is often not worth stopping what you are doing to refresh LB (and sometimes even Harmony), because the healing requirements are so low (and LB overheal so high during that window) that it doesn't really matter. More Druids are doing that, cutting into uptime.

  4. #704
    That actually makes perfect sense. I knew there had to be some logical reasoning behind this. Thanks!

  5. #705
    past that, every fight this tier has about 30s to a full minute of time on the pull where you might as well be dps'ing

    rolling lifebloom and tank hots then will help you on meters/logs, but there's really no reason to bother with it, so even uptimes as low as 70% may be fine on some fights

  6. #706
    Hey guys, just wondering what raid frame addons you guys use. Right now I have elvui but don't know how exactly to mess with the little dots it gives for tracking rejuv, lifebloom etc. But pretty much I'd like to be able to track the hots by like a number counting down or a bar or something. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before, just don't know what they were using. Thanks

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Link a log - you'll prolly find that 65-75% of your healing benefits from increased HPS and HPM from haste (The rest being 20-25% tranq 5-15% swiftmend/RG/HT/YG)
    If only 65-75% of your healing scales with Haste, Mastery becomes a superior stat and Multistrike will probably outperform it, depending on current MS/Haste levels.

    Taking Mastery over Haste for enchants and gems may involve trading a very small loss of HoT healing or rejuv spammability for a much higher gain in Tranq power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ryklin View Post
    rolling lifebloom and tank hots then will help you on meters/logs, but there's really no reason to bother with it, so even uptimes as low as 70% may be fine on some fights
    Another problem with low Lifebloom uptime is losing free Regrowths, which refreshes Harmony, which saves mana.

  8. #708
    Are there any good resources out there for gearing up to do challenge modes as an rdruid? Stats/playstyle/other tips/etc?

  9. #709
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanny2 View Post
    Hey guys, just wondering what raid frame addons you guys use. Right now I have elvui but don't know how exactly to mess with the little dots it gives for tracking rejuv, lifebloom etc. But pretty much I'd like to be able to track the hots by like a number counting down or a bar or something. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before, just don't know what they were using. Thanks
    Up until 3 buff and 3 debuffs the blizzard raidframes are insanely good. Sucks we're druids. ATM I'm using grid with their 3 color approach. Dark colored = over pandemic, light colored = below pandemic and worth recasting. It feels like shit if you're used to getting the exact number, but I feel like with raiding you gotta prioritize your attention and with time I'm sure I'll accept it as the better solution.
    On that note, grid is boss. Get the additional side/corner icon plugins.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    Another problem with low Lifebloom uptime is losing free Regrowths, which refreshes Harmony, which saves mana.
    you ignored the first part

  11. #711
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    Are there any good resources out there for gearing up to do challenge modes as an rdruid? Stats/playstyle/other tips/etc?
    Not that I have found. Haste seems king to me though (just finished 8/8, did alright. not fantastic but a comfortable 1-3min before gold on most). I mostly just looked at babyjace's guides and we formed our run pretty closely to how they did it. general tips would be: cenarion ward felt like a must.
    I went heart on absolutely everything. sometimes for dps sometimes I felt like I needed it for healing.
    I love treeform and I felt like the instant regrowths helped a lot.
    think a lot about when to use your cds. a good ironbark timing & cenarion ward can literally mean you ending the pull with 60k more mana and a tank that's alive. It shouldnt take too many runs to figure out how to map your cds to high effectiveness.

    as to how to gear it, find every item that has haste>mastery stats and run it. I ran all hcs two days in a row, got a little lucky and had some raiding gear from before, and ended up with 3 pieces not haste>mastery I think which was fine.

  12. #712
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    Are there any good resources out there for gearing up to do challenge modes as an rdruid? Stats/playstyle/other tips/etc?
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post32179102 is my take on gear and a bit of playstyle.
    There are a few pvp pieces that you are guaranteed to get if you put in the time that are BiS or close (back, chest, arms, hands are haste/mastery; shoulders, ring, stave are haste/multi for example). Some of the random stat items that you get from garrison missions are BiS. You can buy 3 crafted items with low ilvl and BiS stats for cheap.

    Glyphs: RG, stamp roar, rebirth are a safe setup

    Major tips:
    #1 kick bad players, leave bad groups, no exceptions. Bad =/= inexperienced. Bad players don't learn or adapt.
    #2 pre-pot > in-combat pot, keep the CD rolling
    #3 Alchemist/Engineer

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    Are there any good resources out there for gearing up to do challenge modes as an rdruid? Stats/playstyle/other tips/etc?
    Choose one of two gearing strats depending on your comp's need:
    1. For Healing focus Haste > Mastery > Multistrike > Versitility > Crit > Spirit. Drink water or mage food between pulls for regen. If you have Regrowth Glyphed, Crit is useless for all the spamming you will be doing.
    2. For Damage focus Haste > Multistrike > Crit > Versitility > Mastery = Spirit. Again, drink between pulls. This is for putting out the most dps during HotW and in general without losing too much healing. Mastery and Spirit offer nothing as far as dps goes.

    Talent Options:
    1. SotF vs ToL: SotF is honestly all around better. The ability to empower either WG for aoe, Rejuve for sustained tank damage, or Regrowth for instant tank damage is too valuable. It's up nearly all the time and you don't have to worry about a CD. ToL is viable, but for any serious chain pulling, you won't have it up and it just isn't as versatile and available.
    2. Germination vs Rampant Growth: Germination allows you to care less about dps because you can just double hot them as you need to while continuing to spam the tank. This is my preferred talent. Rampant Growth is viable, and some people prefer this. You need to Unglyph Regrowth for this which does significantly raid the value of crit in both scenarios. Unglyphed Regrowth with Rampant Growth is our most HPS per HPM. I don't like the constant gaps between the GCD from Swiftmend and the cast duration on Regrowth.

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanny2 View Post
    Hey guys, just wondering what raid frame addons you guys use. Right now I have elvui but don't know how exactly to mess with the little dots it gives for tracking rejuv, lifebloom etc. But pretty much I'd like to be able to track the hots by like a number counting down or a bar or something. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before, just don't know what they were using. Thanks
    I've been using Vuhdo for the 5+ years I have been playing a druid. Very customizable and shows everything I need.

    Also, I'm pretty sure in Elv you can set number only and no icon. Pretty sure Affinity does it.

  15. #715
    Mechagnome Krazyito's Avatar
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    I made a picture of the trinkets I have. Basically, I'm using Chew toy + candle on almost every fight. I wanted to know what other people think about different combos on trinkets for different fights / situations. I'm considering Emblem + Blackiron for a throughput/regen combo on some medium length fights, and candle/emblem for longer ones.


  16. #716
    I am not a big fan of Candle and don't really think it stacks up well to Mythic Highmaul trinkets - let alone BRF trinkets. The big problem that I have with it is, in spite of the strong throughput, it is only worth ~218 Spirit and I don't think it's a good trade off.

    For example, let's compare Candle to 691 Mark of Rapid Replication, 685 Emblem of Caustic Healing and 680 Auto-Reparing Enclave (the trinket options I have).

    For throughput stat weights, I would weight them as follows:

    INT - 1.0
    Haste - 0.55
    Mastery - 0.53
    Crit - 0.48
    Multistrike - 0.47
    Versatility - 0.42

    Candle:
    +218 Spirit
    +334 INT
    Throughput rating = 334

    Mark of Rapid Replication (691):
    +422 Spirit
    +187 Haste
    +187 Versatility
    Throughput rating = 182

    Emblem of Caustic Healing (685)
    + 398 Spirit
    + 294 average haste
    Throughput rating = 162

    Ironspike Chew Toy (695)
    + 555 Average Spirit
    + 251 INT
    Throughput rating = 241

    Auto Repairing Enclave (680)
    + 491 Spirit
    + 315 Average Haste
    Throughput rating = 173

    My conclusions from this:
    1. Chew Toy is the clear best in slot.
    2. While Candle has the highest throughput of any trinket (barring DPS trinkets), I don't think the trade off of double the throughput for half the regen is a good tradeoff. The difference between Candle and say the Blackhand trinket in regen is ~65,000 mana over a 10 minute fight. That is 5-6 extra Wild Growths. Check your logs, but in almost all cases, casting 5 more WG a fight will result in more overall healing than the ~3% INT increase getting an extra 150 INT equivalent on a trinket will give you.
    3. Based on that, I think that Candle is outpaced by every single 685+ regen trinket. The only exception is going to be <6 minute fights where you can't run out of mana if you try.

    This is my overall trinket ranking- excluding pure DPS trinkets.

    1. Chew Toy (695)
    2. Auto Repairing Enclave (695)
    3. Chew Toy (680)
    4. Mark of Rapid Replication (685)
    5. Auto Repairing Enclave (680)
    6. Elementalist's Shielding Talisman (695)
    7. Emblem of Caustic Healing (685)
    8. Elementalist's Shielding Talisman (680)
    9. Chew Toy (665)
    10. Everburing Candle (665)
    11. Mark of Rapid Replication (670)
    12. Winged Hourglass (680)
    13. Emblem of Caustic Healing (670)
    14. Winged Hourglass (670)

    I think Candle is very, very overrated for any difficult, long progression fights. Even a shorter but healing intensive fight like M-Gruul will very much stretch your mana pool to the limit.

  17. #717
    I agree with you that candle cannot compete with the three mythic trinkets Chew Toy, Autorepairing and Rapid Replication. However, I do not agree with your throughput evaluation and thus your ranking. You value throughput procs as good as static throughput, which is wrong IMO. With a throughput proc, you always have to assume that it will not be up when you most need it, so its value for that moment is zero. While the exact penalty is open for discussion, giving it 100% highly overrates throughput proc trinkets.
    The usefulness of on-use throughput greatly depends on the fight, I personally also value it less than static, but that is less clear-cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Ironspike Chew Toy (695)
    + 555 Average Spirit
    + 251 INT
    Throughput rating = 241
    Where do you get that spirit number? The tooltip says it's 0.92 procs per minute, why do you claim it actually has 1.32 PPM? I cannot test that myself since no one in my raid has it on any difficulty, but that sounds way too high. Would you care to share the logs?

  18. #718
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    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...31&end=4478986

    I have a heroic chew toy on mine. Here is a log of 9/10H

  19. #719
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    I use toy and candle on most fights, any fight that is somewhat mana intense I'll swap candle out for the auto enclave, but mainly used candle for progress so far as the throughput is still amazing and it comes with a somewhat respectable amount of regen.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    I agree with you that candle cannot compete with the three mythic trinkets Chew Toy, Autorepairing and Rapid Replication. However, I do not agree with your throughput evaluation and thus your ranking. You value throughput procs as good as static throughput, which is wrong IMO. With a throughput proc, you always have to assume that it will not be up when you most need it, so its value for that moment is zero. While the exact penalty is open for discussion, giving it 100% highly overrates throughput proc trinkets.
    The usefulness of on-use throughput greatly depends on the fight, I personally also value it less than static, but that is less clear-cut.



    Where do you get that spirit number? The tooltip says it's 0.92 procs per minute, why do you claim it actually has 1.32 PPM? I cannot test that myself since no one in my raid has it on any difficulty, but that sounds way too high. Would you care to share the logs?
    Keep in mind that the only healer trinkets that have random throughput procs are Auto Repairing Enclave (which is so over budget overall that it compensates for that) and Shielding Talisman (that has a Multistrike proc, which is a weak stat for us putting the trinket towards the bottom of trinket rankings). Emblem of Caustic Healing is on use, which isn't the same as random throughput, because you can control using it during effective times (and well timed on use throughput effects is often better than static stats). Every other trinket is just static throughput.

    I don't personally have a Chew Toy, but I got it from looking at buff uptimes that our HPally is getting with it. The actual RPPM seems to both be significantly higher than the 0.92 tooltip would suggest, as well as have pretty extreme variances on a per fight basis.

    For example:
    M Flamebinder - 29% uptime https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=26
    M Hans and Frans - 44% uptime https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=26
    M Kromog - 23% uptime https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=63

    The Spirit number that I listed is based on the lowest case (23% uptime). It is definitely significantly higher than 0.92 PPM.

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