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  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakii View Post
    Hey guys my RL is going to bench me or a holy priest .... What arguments do I have ot bring a Druid? I see not a single one, everything is covered by holy + he doesnt need mana and can spam AoE + (Hymn = Tranq).
    Stampeding Roar.

    If you're on a different tier token than your raid lead don't forget to bring that up xD

  2. #742
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    Tranq is certainly more power than hymn in terms of raw throughput, but it does have the healing buff, so its closer than you may think although thatll never show up on meters. Are you talking about a specific fight or just in general? And what difficulty?

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by wakii View Post
    Hey guys my RL is going to bench me or a holy priest .... What arguments do I have ot bring a Druid? I see not a single one, everything is covered by holy + he doesnt need mana and can spam AoE + (Hymn = Tranq).
    It's gonna boil down to who the better player is. Tranq is stronger, but hymn does almost as well in most given situations. You bring Stampeding Roar and an instant Battle Res. Mana shouldn't be a deciding factor, as you should have the mana to use AoE throughout the fight if you pace yourself correctly. Druids beat just about every other healer (save for lolPW:shield spam) on a movement fight because of how our HoTs can just do their own thing while we worry about our placement. While Holy does have Renew they can spread onto a bunch of people, they can only Renew so much and Circle of Healing every few seconds whereas we can put Rejuv up on a bunch of people (twice even with Germ), plus instant free regrowths with the 2 pc, plus efflo. Our efflo beats out priests sanctuary any day for grouped players.

  4. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
    Tranq is certainly more power than hymn in terms of raw throughput, but it does have the healing buff, so its closer than you may think although thatll never show up on meters. Are you talking about a specific fight or just in general? And what difficulty?
    So other healers would have to spend loads of extra mana for hymn to accomplish the same healing when the whole point of a healing raid cooldown is to get the group through intensive damage periods for practically zero mana. Even if hymn could provide more healing in theory (though for a lot of extra mana), it's really rare that tq is not enough and you find yourself needing more (but if so there's still HotW)

  5. #745
    I just looted Everburning Candle from the Salvage Yard. How does this trinket fare against BRF's trinkets (or even Highmaul)? Not entirely sure whether to use it or to sell it.

  6. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Because if you are just using it as a +healing cooldown, it has the same problems Incarnation does. 45 seconds is way too long of a duration to be effective with most burst healing phases this tier. Most of those phases are 10-15 seconds long. You would get 10-15 seconds of effectiveness out of HoTW and then just a lot of wasted throughput/overheal and the 6 minute cooldown really limits its effectiveness.
    It does have it moments, though they are very few. I for one found it very benefical on Mythic Imperator in phase 3. Mana was quite limited so I had to make the most of what I had - perhaps DoC would have been better in the grand scheme of things but it worked out in the end. I was also able to squeze in a HoTW tranq before p4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    I just looted Everburning Candle from the Salvage Yard. How does this trinket fare against BRF's trinkets (or even Highmaul)? Not entirely sure whether to use it or to sell it.
    Tiberria made a very good post about it a few pages back, check it out.
    It's really about your playstyle and where you at in terms of progression.
    Last edited by mmoc1ec8e0a79f; 2015-03-04 at 12:54 PM.

  7. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    I just looted Everburning Candle from the Salvage Yard. How does this trinket fare against BRF's trinkets (or even Highmaul)? Not entirely sure whether to use it or to sell it.
    This was answered 2 pages ago. It's definitely the best throughput trinket, but the regen is about half most of the others. If you don't care about regen, its a good trinket to use.

  8. #748
    I usually don't run out of mana even in my shitty gear. And it is going to provide more regen than my current trinkets: [Tharbek's Lucky Pebble] / [Crystalline Blood Drop].

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Candle:
    +218 Spirit
    +334 INT
    Throughput rating = 334
    How did you get to this number of spirit? I tried calculating it myself, but came up with a slightly different number.

  9. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    How did you get to this number of spirit? I tried calculating it myself, but came up with a slightly different number.
    Six and a half minute fight, four uses, for example. Whatever low number you came up with is a worst case scenario where the fight ends just before the CD comes up. Regen/CD puts it at something like 180 spirit iirc.

  10. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erzengel View Post
    Six and a half minute fight, four uses, for example. Whatever low number you came up with is a worst case scenario where the fight ends just before the CD comes up. Regen/CD puts it at something like 180 spirit iirc.
    You'r are almost there.

    I think some of my numbers are off.
    Code:
    Candle:
    120 seconds CD.
    5229 mana per use.
    10458 mana (2 x 5229) over a 120 second period.
    435.75 MP5 (10458 / 120) x 5 ) over a 120 second period.
    1 MP5 = 0.485193 spirit.
    
    => 211.42 spirit (435.75 x 0.485193).
    Like Erzengel states, it depends on the amount of usages. 211(218) spirit is the absolute maximal theoretical value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    I usually don't run out of mana even in my shitty gear. And it is going to provide more regen than my current trinkets: [Tharbek's Lucky Pebble] / [Crystalline Blood Drop].

    - - - Updated - - -

    How did you get to this number of spirit? I tried calculating it myself, but came up with a slightly different number.

    However you won't use it right at the start of the fight. If you don't find yourself in a situation where you are OOM after 85% of the fight and go "Ohh shit I've forgot to use Candle" then this is your trinket.
    Last edited by mmoc1ec8e0a79f; 2015-03-05 at 12:32 PM.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Laggaiskogen View Post
    Like Erzengel states, it depends on the amount of usages. 211(218) spirit is the absolute maximal theoretical value.
    That's not correct, and Erzengel's scenario would give you 260 spirit. A realistic best-case scenario (assuming fight length >= 100s) would be a 3 minute fight with 2 uses:

    20916 mana over 180 seconds = 581 mp5 = 280 spirit

    A worst case would be something like first use at 0:30, boss died at 4:30 (2 uses):

    20916 mana over 270 seconds = 387 mp5 = 188 spirit.

    I would put the average effect somewhere around 210-220 spirit, which is in agreement with Tiberria's number.
    Last edited by Thalur; 2015-03-05 at 05:00 PM.

  12. #752
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    How does Stone of Fire compare to Everburning Candle?

    Stone has +253 versatility, proc chance for 1.35k intellect on a 55sec ICD, and 40% buff to healing/mana pots.

    Candle has +334 intellect, and on-use granting of 10.5k mana every 2mins.

    Instant-use mana pots grant 34k mana - a 40% buff would bring this to 47.6k mana. Channelled mana pot gives 51k mana, and 71.4k total with 40% buff. On a 12min fight, Candle can be used six times, resulting in a gain of around 63k mana, split periodically. (Sorry if my maths is wrong/bad!)

    Stone seems to be the best for mana-recovery, but how does it fair in throughput comparisons? I feel like it might not be that good, but I wanted to make sure and check before I wrote it off entirely.

    I heard that versatility sucks, but I've yet to wrap my head around it, honestly. I'm not really sure how it works, so if anyone could fill me in that would be lovely, and thank you in advance! ^^

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunaeria View Post
    How does Stone of Fire compare to Everburning Candle?

    Stone has +253 versatility, proc chance for 1.35k intellect on a 55sec ICD, and 40% buff to healing/mana pots.

    Candle has +334 intellect, and on-use granting of 10.5k mana every 2mins.

    Instant-use mana pots grant 34k mana - a 40% buff would bring this to 47.6k mana. Channelled mana pot gives 51k mana, and 71.4k total with 40% buff. On a 12min fight, Candle can be used six times, resulting in a gain of around 63k mana, split periodically. (Sorry if my maths is wrong/bad!)

    Stone seems to be the best for mana-recovery, but how does it fair in throughput comparisons? I feel like it might not be that good, but I wanted to make sure and check before I wrote it off entirely.

    I heard that versatility sucks, but I've yet to wrap my head around it, honestly. I'm not really sure how it works, so if anyone could fill me in that would be lovely, and thank you in advance! ^^
    Your math on the regen of Stone is incorrect, because you can't count the entire mana return of the mana potion, only the +40% buff from having the trinket. You get the regular regen from using a potion with or without the trinket equipped.

    It gives you 13,600 mana with a regular mana potion. Over a 10 minute fight, this is the equivalent of 113 mp5/231 Spirit
    It gives you 20,400 extra mana with a channeled pot. Over a 10 minute fight, it's the equivalent of 170 mp5/348 Spirit

    You also have to factor in that you won't necessarily use a pot (or certainly a channeled pot) on every fight, and if you don't, the regen value of the trinket is 0. It also goes up in value the shorter the fight, but on a 10 minute fight and using a regular mana pot, it's about the same amount of regen as Candle.

    Throughput wise, it depends on the uptime. If it's ~20% uptime like similar RPPM trinkets seem to be, you get an average of +270 INT plus +335 Versatility. I would rate Vers at about the value of 1 Vers=0.42 INT, so you get an additional 141 INT equivalent, for a total throughput of 441.

    Based on that, on paper at least, it is a better trinket than Candle, because it is 31% more throughput plus roughly equivalent mana regen as long as you're potting. However, Candle has all it's throughput as static INT, whereas Stone has 2/3 of its throughput value tied into a potentially unreliable proc. That generally makes them closer together than they appear on paper. In reality, it's probably a marginal upgrade to Candle, but not so significant that it's worth the mats price, at least unless you're swimming in gold. I also would personally not take it over 680 Chew Toy or any of the 685+ Spirit trinkets.

  14. #754
    Isn't 113 Mp5 the equivalent of 55 spirit (dividing by 2.061, not multiplying) since 1 spirit is 2.061 MP5?

    Which means it's even worse than given credit for.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Isn't 113 Mp5 the equivalent of 55 spirit (dividing by 2.061, not multiplying) since 1 spirit is 2.061 MP5?

    Which means it's even worse than given credit for.
    Yes, you are right, I calculated it in the wrong direction.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Laggaiskogen View Post
    You'r are almost there.

    I think some of my numbers are off.
    Code:
    Candle:
    120 seconds CD.
    5229 mana per use.
    10458 mana (2 x 5229) over a 120 second period.
    435.75 MP5 (10458 / 120) x 5 ) over a 120 second period.
    1 MP5 = 0.485193 spirit.
    
    => 211.42 spirit (435.75 x 0.485193).
    Like Erzengel states, it depends on the amount of usages. 211(218) spirit is the absolute maximal theoretical value.
    I got the same number. I didn't find any information on the Internet on how much MP5 each point of spirit grants you, so I checked in-game, and it seemed to be around 2.061. 10458 mana every 2 minutes is 10458 / 24 = 435.75, which again equates to 211.4265 spirit, should my findings be correct. I do realise calculating a realistic spirit amount is somewhat tricky, though, considering how it's regenerated erratically and the amount of uses will depend on fight length.

    However you won't use it right at the start of the fight. If you don't find yourself in a situation where you are OOM after 85% of the fight and go "Ohh shit I've forgot to use Candle" then this is your trinket.
    It's a difficult dilemma. I'm not healing as main spec, so I don't know how often I will heal and therefore also how often I will have use for the trinket. For that reason, it is tempting to just auction it, but at the same time, its throughput is incredible.

  17. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    That's not correct, and Erzengel's scenario would give you 260 spirit. A realistic best-case scenario (assuming fight length >= 100s) would be a 3 minute fight with 2 uses:

    20916 mana over 180 seconds = 581 mp5 = 280 spirit

    A worst case would be something like first use at 0:30, boss died at 4:30 (2 uses):

    20916 mana over 270 seconds = 387 mp5 = 188 spirit.

    I would put the average effect somewhere around 210-220 spirit, which is in agreement with Tiberria's number.
    6 1/2 minutes = 390s => 78 mp5 ticks
    4 uses = 41832 mana
    => 536 mp5 => 260 spirit

    You are right, I have no idea what I did there. The point still stands; mana on use trinkets depend heavily on the length of the boss fight and how deep into the fight you can first really use them. I also have correct my (wrong) 180spirit value that I gave for mana/CD; that's actually where the 211spirit comes from - treating the mana gain as passive spirit gives the spirit equivalent of 211spi, disregarding the inflation/deflation that fight length can cause.

    /edit: I would rate it slightly higher than those 211spirit. You use it first, and then the CD starts, so effectively the first 'CD' is more like 30 seconds. Only after that you gain an additional use every 2 minutes. Let's assume the fight length is completely random. If the fight length is an exact multiple of 2 minutes [x*2 minutes] you end up at 211 spirit equivalent.
    If the fight is between x*2 minutes 30s and (x+1)*2 minutes you gain an extra charge without waiting the full 2 minute CD on it, thus inflating the number. If the fight is between x*2 minutes and x*2 minutes 30s you waited for more than an average of 2 minutes per use, thus deflating the average value below 211 spirit equivalent.
    So if you use it 30 seconds into the fight there is a 3:1 chance of it being more than 211 spirit, assuming totally random fight lengths.


    I may be overthinking this. My experience: It's good enough for every single heroic fight there is at the moment if you have spirit on most other slots. Good enough to reliably be #1 healer on kills without overgearing the encounter with mythic gear (I got zero mythic pieces, no AH ones, no kills and I cba garrison for the longest time).
    Last edited by mmocb77704d67b; 2015-03-06 at 04:44 AM.

  18. #758
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Your math on the regen of Stone is incorrect, because you can't count the entire mana return of the mana potion, only the +40% buff from having the trinket. You get the regular regen from using a potion with or without the trinket equipped.

    It gives you 13,600 mana with a regular mana potion. Over a 10 minute fight, this is the equivalent of 113 mp5/231 Spirit
    It gives you 20,400 extra mana with a channeled pot. Over a 10 minute fight, it's the equivalent of 170 mp5/348 Spirit

    You also have to factor in that you won't necessarily use a pot (or certainly a channeled pot) on every fight, and if you don't, the regen value of the trinket is 0. It also goes up in value the shorter the fight, but on a 10 minute fight and using a regular mana pot, it's about the same amount of regen as Candle.

    Throughput wise, it depends on the uptime. If it's ~20% uptime like similar RPPM trinkets seem to be, you get an average of +270 INT plus +335 Versatility. I would rate Vers at about the value of 1 Vers=0.42 INT, so you get an additional 141 INT equivalent, for a total throughput of 441.

    Based on that, on paper at least, it is a better trinket than Candle, because it is 31% more throughput plus roughly equivalent mana regen as long as you're potting. However, Candle has all it's throughput as static INT, whereas Stone has 2/3 of its throughput value tied into a potentially unreliable proc. That generally makes them closer together than they appear on paper. In reality, it's probably a marginal upgrade to Candle, but not so significant that it's worth the mats price, at least unless you're swimming in gold. I also would personally not take it over 680 Chew Toy or any of the 685+ Spirit trinkets.
    just to correct some things, 4/4 stage: +253 versatility, +1350 intelect for 15 seconds, 55 internal cooldown, with amount of spells rdruids cast its up roughly every 40-45 seconds (which is 350-360 int on average, give or take), i think it stacks with legendary ring (+10% int for 10 secs) but they probably dont collide very often. Versatility gives like 2% +dmg/healing and -1% damage taken. Trinket is very good, surpasses candle in my eyes. It all comes down to personal playstyle and stat weights (versatility doesnt "suck", its just weaker than any other secondary stat). If int is worth 2 and versatility 0,7 (haste 1,1 etc) this trinket is around 850+ stat score, hourglass 4/4 at 730.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And saying that during 12 minute fight you can use candle 6 times is only theoretically right. Maidens took my guild like 12-13 minutes i think, Imperator is pretty long fight aswell and there is usually no need to use candle every single time, you can, but you would restore that mana anyway during those "boring" phases/intermissions. This is where theorycrafting completely falls apart.

    I aggree on one thing, if you have no access to BRF heroic/HM mythic trinkets, or will not be able to get them in next 1-2 months then go for it. Im going to use with hourglass 4/4, trinkets never drop for me and when they do they go to healers with worse gear.

  19. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    That's not correct, and Erzengel's scenario would give you 260 spirit. A realistic best-case scenario (assuming fight length >= 100s) would be a 3 minute fight with 2 uses:

    ...

    I would put the average effect somewhere around 210-220 spirit, which is in agreement with Tiberria's number.
    My calculations wasn't made based on Erzengel's scenario, I expressed myself incorrectly with the term "absolute maximal theoretical value". The result of my calculation is how much spirit the mana gained is equivalent too between two usages. Of course you have to look at the amount of possible usages over a specific amount of time. I think Tiberrias conclusion from a couple of pages hold up, Candle get outclassed by every trinket in BRF Heroic and normal Chew Toy. However, depending on the fight it can be a substitute to another trinket.
    Last edited by mmoc1ec8e0a79f; 2015-03-06 at 01:12 PM.

  20. #760
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    candle is 212 spirit, no need to go into exact amounts based on #times used.

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