[Resto] Druid Guide & Discussion (6.0.3)

[Kaniinchen]

The answer depends on your gear but with my values (very high haste and mastery) the first one is better and my gear starts to devalue haste quite a bit. Still, haste is just too valuable compared to everything else.

I have about 2445 Haste and 1571 Mastery. Its really between H-Edict and M-Runic mag tooth/H-Fetish.

[Alzu]

I have about 2445 Haste and 1571 Mastery. Its really between H-Edict and M-Runic mag tooth/H-Fetish.

It wasn't quite clear how the values are in your gear but assuming 2445+94 haste, 1571 mastery and 14 bonus intellect with Edict and 2445 haste and 1571+151 mastery with MH+OH combo, Edict is better but not by much. It's hard to say without exact knowledge about the fight or the rest of your gear but the difference is coincidentally about 14 intellect.

[Kaniinchen]

It wasn't quite clear how the values are in your gear but assuming 2445+94 haste, 1571 mastery and 14 bonus intellect with Edict and 2445 haste and 1571+151 mastery with MH+OH combo, Edict is better but not by much. It's hard to say without exact knowledge about the fight or the rest of your gear but the difference is coincidentally about 14 intellect.

Thanks Alzu and theburned.

[Torty]

Unless you missed to tell us something, the difference is actually 169 haste + 14 int vs 151 mastery. I assume you have socket on your MH+OH combo and gem haste there. I'd honestly go with MH+OH in that case. I honestly doubt that 94 haste and 14 int can outperform 154 mastery with your stats, but it's too close to be called reliably and would have to consider spell distribution on each fight.

[Kaniinchen]

Unless you missed to tell us something, the difference is actually 169 haste + 14 int vs 151 mastery. I assume you have socket on your MH+OH combo and gem haste there. I'd honestly go with MH+OH in that case. I honestly doubt that 94 haste and 14 int can outperform 154 mastery with your stats, but it's too close to be called reliably and would have to consider spell distribution on each fight.

Sorry you are right, I forgot to mention that my offhand has a socket.

[Alzu]

Unless you missed to tell us something, the difference is actually 169 haste + 14 int vs 151 mastery. I assume you have socket on your MH+OH combo and gem haste there. I'd honestly go with MH+OH in that case. I honestly doubt that 94 haste and 14 int can outperform 154 mastery with your stats, but it's too close to be called reliably and would have to consider spell distribution on each fight.

Assuming that you have excess mana (which is very common with an appropriate playstyle and trinkets), haste is far better than anything else, even intellect. It does depend on the fight's healing distribution but even when the distribution favours Mastery, Edict came a head in my calculations.

For some reference, with my stats (the result didn't differ with Kaniinchen's) the stat weights look something like this
Plugging in the stats given, the result was, like I said in my earlier post, even in the case of "Archimonde" around 14 intellect in favour of Edict. And as you can see, the breakdown is very mastery sided e.g. a lot of weight on Tranquility, relatively little on HoTs etc.

I do admit that I made the assumption that mana isn't an issue. If it is however, the MH+OH combo would be heavily favoured.

[Torty]

You value HPCT way too high, which is only true for certain parts of each fight (and I admit they are most of the time the most important ones). I do think that not using all your mana on the fight is the wrong way to play. You are essentially wasting one of your resources for no reason. If you honestly can give me one comprehensive argument, why anyone shouldn't be planning to end the fight with close to 0 mana, I would change my mind about stat weights.

Even that, your stat spread seems kinda hypocritical, considering your druid profile. You are not using ring from Council or Socrethar, bracers from Assault, crafted belt, Zakun cloak. All of these would be better than the ones you are using at the moment, if you actually followed your own stat weights. I honestly can't believe neither of these dropped for you, considering my guild is already disenchanting majority of loot even from second part of the instance and we farm them for less time than you (talking months here), or that you can't afford a craft, but can afford boe belt, which probably costs much more now. My advice would be to follow your own advice, if you are giving it to other people.

Here are the scalings of each spell for my Druid. I have slightly bigger difference between Haste and Mastery than both of you, which makes Mastery better for me than for you. I'd go with mh+oh in 90% of the cases. 10% would be, if I actually played moonkin a lot. In that case I'd use staff for resto and mh+oh for offspec as it isn't such big of a difference

[Alzu]

stuff

Excess mana in my books means that you can make suboptimal casts on purpose to just spend mana. Most of the time those casts are unnecessary and don't provide much but overhealing. I personally don't feel like you need to act as the only healer in the raid and rely on others as well. I never said that you're not supposed to finish with 0 mana.

As I don't know how to calculate a value to spirit, I've left my calculations to situations where you have infinite mana or just enough for that 1 cast. That's why I rely on a feeling of how much spirit I want. I'm currently comfortable with my mana regen with 1 non-spirit item and will drop more spirit items in the future. I feel like the only answer to "how much spirit do I want?" is "as much as you need to make all the casts you find good in a fight." I'm currently following that guideline.

Using the reasoning above, I don't feel like my stats are hypocritical at all. Sure, the cloak is better if you don't want the spirit. Sure, the ring is better if you don't want the spirit. Both of the items are upgrades but you always want some spirit to keep you casting. The reason why I just assumed no mana issues and used the full haste value in my advice, is because I make assumptions that people on this forum use full spirit setup so can afford to cast quite a bit.

Let's go through the other suggestions: 1) Bracers from Assault are strictly worse than my current ones and were even before I got my current WF bracers. Their item level is too low. 2) Crafted belt requires effort to make and I don't care enough right now or want to spend the money to make one. We got my current belt as a drop and was a fitting replacement for my old ilvl 700 belt. It was low-effort for me to obtain (just took it from the guild bank) and didn't really cost the guild anything either (no one bothers selling the boe loot). 3) Zakuun cloak, see above. I'm happy with my spirit right now but will probably switch to it in the near future.

You also have more kills on most of the bosses than my druid as I only relatively recently switched back to it. With RNG how it is, it is completely plausible that some of those items just wouldn't have dropped.

Regarding your spreadsheet, I assume that the values under stats are some kind of stat weights for individual spells. Mine look quite different so either I or you have made a mistake but it's hard to say without seeing each other's calculations. This could be a major reasoning why we think differently about the item choices but like you said on your earlier post, the difference between the items isn't major in any case.

Two things on your spreadsheet that strikes out to me is how is there a difference in haste's value for Rejuvenation and WG? They behave exactly the same in regards to stats so they should have the same value, shouldn't they? Secondly, am I reading your sheet right that mastery has a lower value than MS? That can't be right. Am I just not reading it right or...? Just so you can see what they look for me:

[theburned]

stuff

Too be far wild growth's healing tapers off the more ticks there is, but yeah this is super minor. (though my logic assumes it would devalue haste rather than increase the value of it.)
As for multistrike dynamic scaling would make this possible. ( roughly a 100 stat points between yours and his, aswell as 70 ish mastery in his favor.) Also seeing as your calculations put mastery slightly, very slightly ahead of MS. the difference could put it slightly ahead.
Also I am a bit confused as to why MS is weaker on LB healing compared to mastery. As the t18 scales with MS and I would thus also assume the bloom portion of lifebloom scales aswell.
I can see direct heals being a difference due to how living seed interacts with MS, or lack of interaction with it.
I know your math is also purely theoretical, but devaluing MS that much because of living seed seems a bit drastical. So I would take the MS values there with a grain of salt.

[Alzu]

I did some testing regarding haste and WG and it looks really weird. It looks like WG gains more healing from haste than it should. I tried just before a breakpoint and then just after using a haste elixir (22 haste) and got an average of 111 extra healing for each target. According to my sheet I should've gotten ~86. I did do only 4 sets of casts with each haste value though, so this is not super precise. If anyone knows what's up with that, I'd love to know as well. With Rejuv (197 true gain vs 201 theoretical) the sheet works pretty well. I could accept that as an inaccuracy in my calculations.

You're right about MS and LB, I had forgotten MS scaling for the final bloom. Fixed that.

What do you mean by dynamic scaling? I'm not familiar with MS being too dynamic.

I also can't see anything drastic about devaluing MS with LS. As you can see it mainly affects Regrowth but it's glyphed so 33% of its heal doesn't gain anything from MS. It'd be a big mistake not to take it into account.

[Torty]

I assume that the values under stats are some kind of stat weights for individual spells.

Yeah, it's exactly what they are.

Rejuv's first hit doesn't scale with Haste as it is not considered a hot part, but a direct healing part, while all ticks of WM and WG do scale with Haste. That's where the difference is. If you simplify things, formulas for them would look like this:

Rejuv: 54,2% + 54,2%*6*Haste.

WG: 40%*7*Haste.

I also can't see anything drastic about devaluing MS with LS. As you can see it mainly affects Regrowth but it's glyphed so 33% of its heal doesn't gain anything from MS. It'd be a big mistake not to take it into account.

That was the profile with different belt, I was using Haste + Mastery crafted one rather than heroic Archimonde with Mastery + Multistrike. In that profile I had 316 MS and 1849 Mastery. Even at your stat difference they are extremely close, try simming for my first numbers and I think you will get the same results. Since the change, Mastery is only behind by 1 point on the spells I've done correct math on.

As you can see it mainly affects Regrowth but it's glyphed so 33% of its heal doesn't gain anything from MS. It'd be a big mistake not to take it into account.

It is indeed a mistake in my spreadsheet. I totally forgot that Multistrikes don't add to LS amount.

That's what I got after I fixed it and simmed with different belt. Looks closer to your value on Regrowth at least:



I'm a bit too tired to post on the Spirit discussion, will do that some time tonight after work.

[Alzu]

stuff

I actually didn't think about Rejuv's haste scaling more than "take SP coefficient from wowhead, multiply by haste". I'll need to check that later in detail.

Mostly the other points I said in my latest post were actually for theburned. I should've quoted to make that clear, sorry. Funny that the post still managed to help you find a mistake.

[theburned]

I did some testing regarding haste and WG and it looks really weird. It looks like WG gains more healing from haste than it should. I tried just before a breakpoint and then just after using a haste elixir (22 haste) and got an average of 111 extra healing for each target. According to my sheet I should've gotten ~86. I did do only 4 sets of casts with each haste value though, so this is not super precise. If anyone knows what's up with that, I'd love to know as well. With Rejuv (197 true gain vs 201 theoretical) the sheet works pretty well. I could accept that as an inaccuracy in my calculations.

okay this really sounds weird.

You're right about MS and LB, I had forgotten MS scaling for the final bloom. Fixed that.

Glad to help.

What do you mean by dynamic scaling? I'm not familiar with MS being too dynamic.

You can look at every stat as a multiplier and your spell power as the base value. Dynamic scaling means that each of the other multipliers get more important as one or more multiplier gets higher, it is the reason that simcraft tends to value stats which you have very little of, even if your specc doesn't really scale much of it. And also the reason versatility is a bit more attractive at this point compared to start of the expansion, which is quite illustrative aswell, because versatility costs 130 rating compared to 1% mastery which costs 88. dynamic scaling is what makes versatility be within 12% of mastery.

I also can't see anything drastic about devaluing MS with LS. As you can see it mainly affects Regrowth but it's glyphed so 33% of its heal doesn't gain anything from MS. It'd be a big mistake not to take it into account.

While this is very correct in theory, in practice regrowth does close to 0% overhealing, while living seed doesn't always get procced, or overheals by a ton, which means it overvalues crit and undervalues MS. I guess you could expect the one using the calc to know that, but still feels a bit weird.

[Hildrande]

I did some testing regarding haste and WG and it looks really weird. It looks like WG gains more healing from haste than it should. I tried just before a breakpoint and then just after using a haste elixir (22 haste) and got an average of 111 extra healing for each target. According to my sheet I should've gotten ~86. I did do only 4 sets of casts with each haste value though, so this is not super precise. If anyone knows what's up with that, I'd love to know as well.

It's been a while since I was engaged in restodruid theorycrafting, but I do remember strange things happening to Wild Growth when they fixed the breakpoint. Basically it got stronger than the wowhead sp% value said, since it rounded the healing up towards the previous breakpoints, not down or to the mid point.

Which leads me to the next question - to ask whether you only rely on database sp% values for the spreadsheets, or also check them against log data. I'm not convinced the wowhead values are always correct, I know the ingame tooltip values aren't.

- - - Updated - - -

Too be far wild growth's healing tapers off the more ticks there is, but yeah this is super minor.

Wild Growth's uneven ticks should not affect haste scaling since haste will make the larger ticks at the start to be denser packed.

[Alzu]

Which leads me to the next question - to ask whether you only rely on database sp% values for the spreadsheets, or also check them against log data. I'm not convinced the wowhead values are always correct, I know the ingame tooltip values aren't..

Only from Wowhead. Never even crossed my mind that they might be inaccurate.

While this is very correct in theory, in practice regrowth does close to 0% overhealing, while living seed doesn't always get procced, or overheals by a ton, which means it overvalues crit and undervalues MS. I guess you could expect the one using the calc to know that, but still feels a bit weird.

I can understand that yeah. Hard to get a good estimate though how to apply values from that though. My sheet assumes nothing to overheal so would require some work to figure out a way to think things through again.

[Arctagon]

I'm resto as off-spec and haven't picked up much gear from HFC yet, but of these trinkets, which would you use?

- [Ironspike Chew Toy]
- [Elementalist's Shielding Talisman]
- [Darmac's Unstable Talisman] + 50 mastery
- [Goren Soul Repository] + 50 mastery
- [Auto-Repairing Autoclave]

[Keiyra]

I'm resto as off-spec and haven't picked up much gear from HFC yet, but of these trinkets, which would you use?

I'd say Shielding Talisman and Auto-Repairing. That extra spirit will help if you are still undergeared and/or working on progressing through HFC heroic/mythic.

[Arctagon]

We currently have heroic on farm and don't have enough players for mythic yet, but we're getting close. But yeah, I guess as soon we're getting into mythic I will need the spirit. Appreciated.

[Hypasonic]

I'm resto as off-spec and haven't picked up much gear from HFC yet, but of these trinkets, which would you use?

- [Ironspike Chew Toy]
- [Elementalist's Shielding Talisman]
- [Darmac's Unstable Talisman] + 50 mastery
- [Goren Soul Repository] + 50 mastery
- [Auto-Repairing Autoclave]

Ironspike and Autoclave.

[Jayjayhey]

Returning resto druid here, any major changes in 6.2? I quit about a month or two after BRF released.