Brewmaster stats after buff

[Rockets]

For BrM I dunno what could be causing it. Theck mentioned in his blog post that for prot it's a matter of haste breakpoints, but I don't really understand protadins well enough to guess what would cause TMI to go back up just because you hit a haste breakpoint; at worst it should stay level, right?

[rijn dael]

And on that note you can just override the stats by removing the "#" and putting your own stats in. At this point you could also just import your armory profile which would be more accurate for your specific character.

Wait, can I completely skip adding in gear and just use raw stats to test hypotheticals?

I know I won't get trinkets/enchants/procs that way, but it will work? If so, you just blew my mind O.o

[Totaltotemic]

For BrM I dunno what could be causing it. Theck mentioned in his blog post that for prot it's a matter of haste breakpoints, but I don't really understand protadins well enough to guess what would cause TMI to go back up just because you hit a haste breakpoint; at worst it should stay level, right?

GotO and having enough energy for Expel Harm most likely.

Just because of the way TMI works if the worst windows have a GotO or Expel right at the start, but more haste causes it to happen slightly before that, then it stops registering the healing as being part of the window. It's just a statistical problem with TMI in that it's not a perfect measure of survivability, just a health delta from 0.0 to 6.0 seconds averaged across all possible 6 second windows.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, can I completely skip adding in gear and just use raw stats to test hypotheticals?

I know I won't get trinkets/enchants/procs that way, but it will work? If so, you just blew my mind O.o

Yeah you can, in fact a good way to get a baseline idea of how good each stat is without diminishing returns factoring into it is to just set all stats to 500 and then increment each one by 100 or something to see the difference without having to do a giant plot.

[Deleted]

wow, good to see this. I have felt pretty OP so far though so not sure why we getting buffed - perhaps raids?

Also is crit. higher stat prio than versatility because less crit rating per % than vers. For me I am stacking Versatility after BArM>Mastery

Edit: Ok nvm Promdates explained it quite clearly.

[Totaltotemic]

wow, good to see this. I have felt pretty OP so far though so not sure why we getting buffed - perhaps raids?

Everything was balanced around level 100 raiding in beta. Before any of the hotfixes, BrM was middle of the pack in terms of survivability in tanks in raids and we could see this from raid testing, simcraft, and some pretty simple tank dummy tests.

What happened though was that everyone that was doing any kind of serious testing in beta were all people that had typically over a year experience with BrM and very in-depth knowledge about how the spec works. BrM has always had a somewhat high skill ceiling with a moderately high skill floor (at its base level, press EB when it lights up, keep Shuffle up, and Purify at red stagger is not very difficult), and if they just balanced with the MoP level of complexity in mind BrM would have ended up in a pretty good spot.

What happened though was that both Chi Explosion and Serenity added giant layers of complexity on top of what was already there in terms of Purifying. Serenity increases how often you have the ability to purify by 2-3 times what it used to be, so it becomes a huge game of playing around the 5-20% Stagger range and knowing whether you should PB right this instant or 2 seconds from now. On the other hand, CE practically handcuffs PB and BoK together so if you want any benefit out of the talent you have to recognize the big hits and set yourself up to have 3 chi exactly when it happens, which takes a lot of foresight and planning. On top of that, they tried to do this attunement thing where everyone has one clearly always best stat, except they failed when it came to BrM and did not make Crit always the best stat simply because EB is not always useful. So they balanced around an above average level of skill when a massive gap opened on the lower end of huge mistakes people can make, to the point where if CE is mismanaged you won't even keep 100% Shuffle uptime, which used to be a given. Basically, BrM's skill floor fell down a few stories so unless someone has a very good idea of what they're doing, they won't be able to function as a tank on a decent level, so that needed to be brought up some.

Edit: That's not to say that people that are having trouble are bad (although if you literally cannot complete a CM in 630 gear, it's not the spec that's the problem), but there's a huge burden of knowledge to figure out how to optimally play. The knowledge required isn't really even a lot related to BrM as a spec, but to mobs, bosses, and mechanics themselves. Both CE and Serenity require a mental timeline of future Stagger to be running at all times to use properly so that you know when you're wasting chi and when it's a good idea to just wait one more second. That means that if you don't know what ever mob in every dungeon does, you're going to be blind-sided in a way that other tanks aren't because they just press the damage reduction buttons almost all of the time and it's okay.

Also is crit. higher stat prio than versatility because less crit rating per % than vers. For me I am stacking Versatility after BArM>Mastery

It's more damage and self-healing than Versatility, but like I said above sometimes EB's benefit is nonexistent whereas Versatility's straight damage reduction is still useful in all circumstances. Personally I think the gap might be too wide for the few times EB isn't useful to be overtaken by Versatility, but there's just enough there for it to not quite be better than mastery.

[Hinalover]

Everything was balanced around level 100 raiding in beta. Before any of the hotfixes, BrM was middle of the pack in terms of survivability in tanks in raids and we could see this from raid testing, simcraft, and some pretty simple tank dummy tests.

What happened though was that everyone that was doing any kind of serious testing in beta were all people that had typically over a year experience with BrM and very in-depth knowledge about how the spec works. BrM has always had a somewhat high skill ceiling with a moderately high skill floor (at its base level, press EB when it lights up, keep Shuffle up, and Purify at red stagger is not very difficult), and if they just balanced with the MoP level of complexity in mind BrM would have ended up in a pretty good spot.

What happened though was that both Chi Explosion and Serenity added giant layers of complexity on top of what was already there in terms of Purifying. Serenity increases how often you have the ability to purify by 2-3 times what it used to be, so it becomes a huge game of playing around the 5-20% Stagger range and knowing whether you should PB right this instant or 2 seconds from now. On the other hand, CE practically handcuffs PB and BoK together so if you want any benefit out of the talent you have to recognize the big hits and set yourself up to have 3 chi exactly when it happens, which takes a lot of foresight and planning. On top of that, they tried to do this attunement thing where everyone has one clearly always best stat, except they failed when it came to BrM and did not make Crit always the best stat simply because EB is not always useful. So they balanced around an above average level of skill when a massive gap opened on the lower end of huge mistakes people can make, to the point where if CE is mismanaged you won't even keep 100% Shuffle uptime, which used to be a given. Basically, BrM's skill floor fell down a few stories so unless someone has a very good idea of what they're doing, they won't be able to function as a tank on a decent level, so that needed to be brought up some.

Edit: That's not to say that people that are having trouble are bad (although if you literally cannot complete a CM in 630 gear, it's not the spec that's the problem), but there's a huge burden of knowledge to figure out how to optimally play. The knowledge required isn't really even a lot related to BrM as a spec, but to mobs, bosses, and mechanics themselves. Both CE and Serenity require a mental timeline of future Stagger to be running at all times to use properly so that you know when you're wasting chi and when it's a good idea to just wait one more second. That means that if you don't know what ever mob in every dungeon does, you're going to be blind-sided in a way that other tanks aren't because they just press the damage reduction buttons almost all of the time and it's okay.


It's more damage and self-healing than Versatility, but like I said above sometimes EB's benefit is nonexistent whereas Versatility's straight damage reduction is still useful in all circumstances. Personally I think the gap might be too wide for the few times EB isn't useful to be overtaken by Versatility, but there's just enough there for it to not quite be better than mastery.

As posted in that other thread, Crit is still valuable. At this early gearing yes Versatility is about even with Crit in value. But once we start seeing 25-30% crit, Crit starts to become even with Mastery. Also Crit, and Multistrike to a lesser degree, will take over Mastery once we get to the point that we out-gear a set content. Since the damage intake is not as strong once we have gear, mastery and versatility start to loose their value.

[Totaltotemic]

As posted in that other thread, Crit is still valuable. At this early gearing yes Versatility is about even with Crit in value. But once we start seeing 25-30% crit, Crit starts to become even with Mastery. Also Crit, and Multistrike to a lesser degree, will take over Mastery once we get to the point that we out-gear a set content. Since the damage intake is not as strong once we have gear, mastery and versatility start to loose their value.

Like I've said dozens of times at this point, the TMI standard boss only accurately gauges a stat's value for a boss that is basically Patchwerk with a slight magic DoT in which the tank in question is tanking 100% of the time. All of that is true... for a boss that only AAs with a slight magic DoT with 100% uptime on the same tank. You never see Crit overtaking Mastery on the target dummy boss that does the physical nuke every 8 seconds, and you wouldn't see it on any tank swap boss either.

As for Versatility, I just said that I don't think it does enough to make up for the fact that Crit is so much better than it when Crit is actually useful. These are just random numbers, but if, say, 50% of attacks were undodgeable then Versatility would be a lot more important than if only 20% of them are undodgeable. Nothing can really tell you how often that happens in reality except actually doing the content in appropriate gear levels, and at this point it's looking like there just aren't enough of those situations to warrant dropping Crit for Versatility.

I also see no point in talking about outgearing content. If all anyone wants is DPS, they can go Chi Explosion and stack Crit and Multistrike, but they don't need someone to tell them that when SimC can do that just fine. If there's one thing that is basically the same on every fight, it's DPS since the tank will always be on the boss anyways.

[InkarnateKT]

You are over valuing versatility and multistrike according to your armory. Crit is going to be better up until a point in reducing damage by increasing your EB uptime compared to the value that versatility will give you (note: 260 V-rating = 1% DR, 110 C-rating =1% crit). Not only are you low on crit, which means you are using Chi Brew (which is the worst of the 3 options for chi per minute) instead of power strikes so that you can try to avoid more damage.

Multistrike on the other hand is going to be 100% dependent on the fight. If there is a lot of mobility you will not be able to get the full benefit of the MS proc with the orbs (hint: there are a decent number of movement fights this tier).

Should be aiming for BA>Crit/Mastery>Vers/>MS>Haste (The reason for the Vers/>MS is dependent on the fight mobility).

I would like to drop some if possible ya, bad luck on drops and rolls though. Chi per minute might matter more for raids, and I'll probably switch once they open. I find Chi Brew far superior for heroics and CMs though. 0 Chi problems whatsoever in 5 mans.

[Maichii]

I would like to drop some if possible ya, bad luck on drops and rolls though. Chi per minute might matter more for raids, and I'll probably switch once they open. I find Chi Brew far superior for heroics and CMs though. 0 Chi problems whatsoever in 5 mans.

It´s not only luck with drops, you have to mention that there isn´t much "good" gear available at the moment. There aren´t that much pieces which contain mastery/crit or even mastery/versatility. The next problem is, that even if your item has Mastery/Crit on it, another one with socket/upgrade could be better.

Of course you can "aim" for Mastery/Crit gear, but this won´t be easy, now that reforge is gone.