The fiend or the solace debate.

[Deleted]

I figured there is an extra factor of reliability if mindbender is used instead of solace for mana management issues. Not on holy, on disc, holy I guess could use the procs of flash heal for serendipity. It's just that when shit hits the fan, there might be precious time to be saved by only using a fiend, instead of having to care about using a random heal that may do nothing.

[Deleted]

Counterargument!

Solace has higher regen and grants a stack of Evangelism. Mindbender can also be unreliable and is vulnerable to the issues pets face in addition to automatically not attacking a target which the Priest has not targeted, should the original die.

[anon5123]

Solace gives way more mana regen than Mindbender. Also yes, Mindbender can be unreliable, or potentially die to damage.

[Disciple81]

I figured there is an extra factor of reliability if mindbender is used instead of solace for mana management issues. Not on holy, on disc, holy I guess could use the procs of flash heal for serendipity. It's just that when shit hits the fan, there might be precious time to be saved by only using a fiend, instead of having to care about using a random heal that may do nothing.

If you are not aware of the numbers and the problems look at the op posts and google. Mind bender can't touch solace. Solace is more mana if kept on cd and it is a heal and the only hot disc has so you are not wasting a gcd or risking anything by using it, add to that the fact that it cannot be killed or cc'd by boss mechanics and yeah it is a no contest.

[shanthi]

Solace, in addition to being more total mana if used on cooldown and granting stacks of Evangelism, also has greater granularity. Mindbender isn't bad in that regard, especially as compared to (the old) Shadowfiend, since it gets you back a smaller percentage of your mana per use, but even that can be wasted if you're only down, say, 5%. Solace you can start to use almost immediately with no mana wastage...with Mindbender, you need to burn a significant (though not huge) amount of mana in order to get it on cooldown with no wastage.

[Deleted]

It depends on the fight, if you're more concerned with lengthy periods of high damage then SoL > Mindbender > PW:Sol, if you're only concerned about mana then PW:Sol > Mindbender. SoL is very fight dependent, you need to be getting around 3 useful procs per minute for it to beat PW:Sol.

[Deleted]

Guys, I knew solace is higher regen. That's why it needs a debate.


It would obviously not need a debate if they were equal..

..since mindbender would be just "easier and equal".




PS. Good point it helps archangel.



PPS. I consider the "bender may fail" argument irrelevant, it is a very niche situation and easily avoidable in 90% of the cases.
But avoiding the solace spending your precious GCDs is impossible way too many times.

[Deleted]

How is the argument about the unreliability of Mindbender irrelevant when one of the main things you are supposing is that Solace is less reliable? The argument against Solace only becomes relevant when either a) the DPS gain from Mindbender is enough to shorten the fight to the extent that you do not need to cast more expensive spells that Solace would enable or b) you need to spend so many GCDs in a fight that decreased Solace use becomes an equivalent mana gain to Mindbender.

[Deleted]

Solace always.

[Evry]

For Discipline, Solace giving a stack of evangelism is a pretty big plus until we get 2pc.

[Deleted]

Solace gives way more mana regen than Mindbender. Also yes, Mindbender can be unreliable, or potentially die to damage.

way more isn't exactly true. Even if you cast solace EXACTLY on CD it's only marginally ahead if you have some haste. Once you start getting higher levels of haste and start accounting for delayed solaces then they level out very quickly. If it's taking you 5sec+ after the CD to cast solace then it's probably already in your best interest to go mindbender. Besides, it means you don't have to cast solace during periods you want throughput in order to gain mana

[Deleted]

Even if you cast solace EXACTLY on CD it's only marginally ahead if you have some haste.

But aren't Mindbender's attacks are also affected by haste? If so I'm pretty sure Solace is almost always ~80% ahead assuming perfect use of both.

[Deleted]

How is the argument about the unreliability of Mindbender irrelevant

I said it's irrelevant because the unreliability of it is very minor. Not that it doesn't exist. (While solace having to be used on CD, more or less, is more clunky than the 1min cd).




By the way, I used solace again today on a challenge mode, it didn't feel particularly taxing, so I might not care either way.

Though, it did become a completely secondary concern when I was doing the last boss of UpperBS because of the mess.

So, it seems nice for 90% of the fights but in some cases of a total mess it might be less reliable in uptime.




PS. It seems you guys completely omit to realize using a GCD is a big deal in this game. Especially when some of your major spells are exactly 1 GCD.

[Deleted]

But aren't Mindbender's attacks are also affected by haste? If so I'm pretty sure Solace is almost always ~80% ahead assuming perfect use of both.

that's what I mean, mindbender mana scales with haste. solace does not.

[Evry]

PS. It seems you guys completely omit to realize using a GCD is a big deal in this game. Especially when some of your major spells are exactly 1 GCD.

There may be fights where it matters, but remember that even with casting Penance and PW:Solace on cd, you won't be GCD capped in a raid encounter. You simply won't have the mana to cast that much PW:S and EAA PoH. On average you shouldn't lose that much from ideal Solace usage.

I'm also not convinced we're saving that many GCDs by taking mindbender over solace (pre 2pc). You'll still want to get some Evangelism for EAA. At least Solace gives you something else for spending the GCD for the stack.

Mindbender will probably be the better choice with 2pc.

[Deleted]

There may be fights where it matters, but remember that even with casting Penance and PW:Solace on cd, you won't be GCD capped in a raid encounter. You simply won't have the mana to cast that much PW:S and EAA PoH. On average you shouldn't lose that much from ideal Solace usage.

I'm also not convinced we're saving that many GCDs by taking mindbender over solace (pre 2pc). You'll still want to get some Evangelism for EAA. At least Solace gives you something else for spending the GCD for the stack.

Mindbender will probably be the better choice with 2pc.

I just added that thought as an additional. I actually find solace quite strong. I tend to think right now the strength of solace can mainly diminish not because of the technical issues like GCD amount, but by the playstyle of the encounter or the player inside an encounter, namely, "am I going to care using solace right now that shit hit the fan?" or other examples like that.




edit: Example: I have 5 players, one of them is full health, another is 5-10% (imminent death possible), the tank is <40% (death possible in the near future) and the others around 50% (needing some healing soon). Am I going to use solace? Probably not immediately, but there might be the exception of a solace+a quick archangel for the crit.

[delicioussandwhiches]

I just added that thought as an additional. I actually find solace quite strong. I tend to think right now the strength of solace can mainly diminish not because of the technical issues like GCD amount, but by the playstyle of the encounter or the player inside an encounter, namely, "am I going to care using solace right now that shit hit the fan?" or other examples like that.

edit: Example: I have 5 players, one of them is full health, another is 5-10% (imminent death possible), the tank is <40% (death possible in the near future) and the others around 50% (needing some healing soon). Am I going to use solace? Probably not immediately, but there might be the exception of a solace+a quick archangel for the crit.

This argument is meant to be in favour of mindbender but in fact it is the opposite. Delaying mindbender by 10 seconds or so as you're scenario suggests would be more detrimental to your mana pool than delaying solace for 10 seconds.

I don't know if you're a forum troll, a 15 year old kid with too much time, a shill or have some kind of disability but you post an enormous load of shit in this subforum and do it incredibly frequently - please stop and have a think about what you're writing before you post, read through and prevent yourself from giving shitty advice/arguments in future.

For reference today you posted; "Because holy is low output enough at the moment to require predictions." All healing requires pre-thought and outside of a major raid CD, a little bit of wind-up to it full throughout (of which holy's is extremely strong).

But I don't understand, a little earlier today you seemed to know almost nothing about Discipline when you asked "Does multistrike proc on shields at all?". Which is normally a fine question to ask, the problem is that you pretend to know everything and constantly post firm directives implying you know a great deal when in fact the opposite is true. Typically most people are okay with a little bit of this, the problem here is the vast quantities of this 'advice without evidence' that you post as it almost always happens to be wrong and without any solid basis.

Interesting you firmly told someone to "Just stop talking. I know personally of world renowned statisticians that respect a sample size of 20 or 40 samples. You're embarrassing yourself." This post piqued my curiosity for 3 reasons;
- The only time a sample size of 20-40 is okay is when there are 20-40 total points in the demographic (ie. there will be no extrapolation or implied causation/correlation in the discussion).
- The irony is so thick its nauseating, you sound completely full of shit and idiotic in stating this.
- Finally, I don't know how you haven't been banned yet for the large amount of either troll posts or shit posts in the past few weeks.

Honestly, seeing the crap you spout is making this forum a worse place. A little bit is fine, as are asking questions or clarity from other players - that's largely what these forums appear to be for. But the massive amount of ego infused statements is too much.
You deserve a ban (which oddly hasn't come yet) or at least to have the copious amounts of shit shovelled back into your face as a means trying to make you understand what you're doing.
Please, think seriously before posting again.

[Jimjam38]

FFS please don't open this can of worms again, it's been so thoroughly concluded that solace is the highest mana regen, and is the best talent for disc while raiding due to killing two birds with one stone as it grants evangelism too. For situations where the mana regen isn't as important, ie, dungeons, questing, etc, mindbender's damage makes it competitive. SoL isn't really as good due to not proccing on PWS or COW, our most used abilities.

[Deleted]

This argument is meant to be in favour of mindbender but in fact it is the opposite. Delaying mindbender by 10 seconds or so as you're scenario suggests would be more detrimental to your mana pool than delaying solace for 10 seconds.

I don't know if you're a forum troll, a 15 year old kid with too much time, a shill or have some kind of disability but you post an enormous load of shit in this subforum and do it incredibly frequently - please stop and have a think about what you're writing before you post, read through and prevent yourself from giving shitty advice/arguments in future.

For reference today you posted; "Because holy is low output enough at the moment to require predictions." All healing requires pre-thought and outside of a major raid CD, a little bit of wind-up to it full throughout (of which holy's is extremely strong).

But I don't understand, a little earlier today you seemed to know almost nothing about Discipline when you asked "Does multistrike proc on shields at all?". Which is normally a fine question to ask, the problem is that you pretend to know everything and constantly post firm directives implying you know a great deal when in fact the opposite is true. Typically most people are okay with a little bit of this, the problem here is the vast quantities of this 'advice without evidence' that you post as it almost always happens to be wrong and without any solid basis.

Interesting you firmly told someone to "Just stop talking. I know personally of world renowned statisticians that respect a sample size of 20 or 40 samples. You're embarrassing yourself." This post piqued my curiosity for 3 reasons;
- The only time a sample size of 20-40 is okay is when there are 20-40 total points in the demographic (ie. there will be no extrapolation or implied causation/correlation in the discussion).
- The irony is so thick its nauseating, you sound completely full of shit and idiotic in stating this.
- Finally, I don't know how you haven't been banned yet for the large amount of either troll posts or shit posts in the past few weeks.

Honestly, seeing the crap you spout is making this forum a worse place. A little bit is fine, as are asking questions or clarity from other players - that's largely what these forums appear to be for. But the massive amount of ego infused statements is too much.
You deserve a ban (which oddly hasn't come yet) or at least to have the copious amounts of shit shovelled back into your face as a means trying to make you understand what you're doing.
Please, think seriously before posting again.

The fact you used a sockpuppet account to rant shows that there's something wrong here about you, not me. I had a question about this. Do you want to stop all discussions just because you are irritated you are posed with questions?

This is a forum. It's not supposed to be here to reaffirm what you already believe.

- - - Updated - - -

FFS please don't open this can of worms again, it's been so thoroughly concluded that solace is the highest mana regen, and is the best talent for disc while raiding due to killing two birds with one stone as it grants evangelism too. For situations where the mana regen isn't as important, ie, dungeons, questing, etc, mindbender's damage makes it competitive. SoL isn't really as good due to not proccing on PWS or COW, our most used abilities.

For the second time, I know that it is higher output. It would need no debate if it was the same output since with fewer GCDs and no additional advantage, it would make mindbender automatically better in almost all cases.



PS. "No additional advantage" would include archangel, if that was taken into account.

[Deleted]

that's what I mean, mindbender mana scales with haste. solace does not.

Ah right! Well it turns out my spreadsheet that had Solace/Mindbender regen was wrong - I agree with your previous post about it catching up in regen.

From a Holy point of view:

You need 37.5% haste for Mindbender to break even with Solace, ignoring the break point for melee swings per 15 seconds, if is still exists.
At 12% haste which is around where I am at non-optimal 639 you'll get back around 13,600 mana per minute from Mindbender whereas you'll get 19,200 from Solace.

As you gear up the healing component of Solace will also increase, right now I have around 4,700 SP raid buffed, 6 Solace per minute would give me around 62,000 healing per minute. If you imagine that healing came from 5 Heals and wasn't over healing it has a mana value of around 16,000. It would take around 66% Haste for Mindbender to match this new figure.