Why Didn't Varian Make Any Demands?

[Deleted]

Hey there. Something's been bothering me since watching the SoO end cutscene. From the Alliance side, Varian gives his 'I will end you' speech, and then the factions seem to go their separate ways, happy enough. There is no way the other leaders of the Alliance would let this go down. At this moment in time, the Alliance has the power to abolish the horde with the click of a finger, and the world would belong to the Alliance. They have the power to demand whatever they want, and there is 0% chance that none of them would cash in on this.

For starters, Tyrande would demand that the orcs get out of Ashenvale. After everything Garrosh did there, the horde have no right to even think of denying this request.
Secondly, I don't see why Varian wouldn't demand the Forsaken leave Lordaeron. That kingdom still belongs to the Alliance, and it was foolish of them to not seize it back in WLK, during the Battle for the Undercity. After what the Forsaken have been up to in Hillsbrad, there's no way the Alliance would simply let monsters of Sylvanas' calibre to remain their neighbours.

These are just some examples of what I think are huge, huge oversights in Blizzard's writing of this scenario. I understand Varian isn't the smartest of politicians or leaders, but there is no chance that the combined leaders of the Alliance would settle for what transpired here.

Am I missing something, or did Blizzard just want to avoid 'unnecessary' work in changing the zones and quests?

[Vargas]

Mostly its gameplay, but Varian isn't a moron.


He knows that you can't judge the entire Horde by the actions of a few; most of the Horde actively worked against Garrosh. Antagonizing the Horde by taking land would only make things worse, and prompt them to defend themselves. Taran Zu was right; every action the Alliance takes is seen as a threat by the Horde and vice versa and every reaction to these percieved threats prompts reprisals from the other side. Varian did the smart thing and just let them go with a warning that if the Horde goes back to being brutal and bloodthirsty than he will wipe them out completely.

[Disreali]

Gameplay.

Gilneas, Ashenvale, and Dalaran are all in Alliance hands as far as the lore goes. They just can't (or won't, depending on who you ask) show that in-game for gameplay reasons.

[Nadiru]

Because the Horde get off consequence-free for everything they do. They weren't "the bad guys" it was the blood curse! They didn't try to fuse with an Old God, it was Garrosh! They'll get away with starting shit on Draenor in Ashran, too.

[NPI]

I agree with you both of your examples. I think its just gameplay reasons. Ashenvale - there is a battleground (warsong gulch) which should be removed. Also battle for Gilneas should be removed, and they should relocate the undead to somewhere else. I don't think they will ever do that.

In this game the horde is the ultimate evil, so defeating them would be the end of the game. WOD is the greatest example that with or without the demonic interference the orcs just bloodthirsty animals.

[jordonus]

They wanted to end them right there and it certainly looked like Varian considered it. The problem is that it wasn't very long before they selected a new warchief which means that there would be no infighting; this would be necessary to end things there. Also consider, they are in the heart of horde territory and the room is full of the greatest champions of Azeroth. They were in a very dangerous situation and in no position to make demands. At the very least it devolves into a bloodbath, at the very worst the Alliance leaders are massacred.

[StationaryHawk]

There were agreements made as far as I recall, including Gilneas and Ashenvale being put back in Alliance hands.

Good luck getting them to agree to handing over Lordaeron though.

[tjanson]

These are just some examples of what I think are huge, huge oversights in Blizzard's writing of this scenario. I understand Varian isn't the smartest of politicians or leaders, but there is no chance that the combined leaders of the Alliance would settle for what transpired here.

Am I missing something, or did Blizzard just want to avoid 'unnecessary' work in changing the zones and quests?

You aren't missing anything. This is some lazy, stupid shit. There's literally no chance that Varian just walks out of there and lets the Horde carry on business as usual(assuming he's a rational actor, which usually he seems to be). At the very least you'd want to put some constraints or oversight on Sylvanas and the Forsaken who at this point you'd have to be insane to trust.

As far as him being intimidated by the leaders of the Horde, please. The leaders of the Alliance are close by and every bit as powerful as anyone the Horde has to offer - they JUST showed that Thrall can barely summon any of the elements to aid him, I'd put Varian over Baine every day of the week, Jaina is essentially a superweapon, and the rest of the Alliance army is there as well. I'm not saying that it's a surefire Alliance victory, but you definitely are in a position of strength if you're the Alliance.

Look, I don't see Varian coming into the room and demanding the Horde dismantle itself. That's only something you do when you hold all the cards. But for him to be like "well NEXT time we'll totally destroy you but I guess we'll let this shit slide" just seems implausible to the extreme. There would be meetings, there would be posturing, but none of that fits into a minute long cinematic where everyone has to look cool, I guess.

[Deleted]

This.
Let's list off who is in the room.
Thrall, lore-wise most powerful shaman on Azeroth, or at least the most powerful in the most notable shaman-only faction, the Earthen Ring and also a capable warrior considering his early years as a gladiator.
Vol"Darkspear nevah die" Jin
Sylvanas the Bitch queen, who probably has some plague tipped arrows and knows how to Legolas times 20 that shit.
Baine, probably the most normal of the bunch being a warrior but more than capable of handling a few alliance soldiers or hold his own against Varian.
Lor'themar, wise beyond any human in terms of skill in combat due to his elvish life-span.
And Gallywix who probably has a flamethrower mounted shredder on speed dial.

Up against Varian, a skilled warrior who also had years being a gladiator and something of a wolf side but not a worgen(not keen on ally lore)
Jaina, a powerful mage who would probably succumb to first war orc level of bloodlust soon as someone swung even a foam weapon due to her being "kill all horde" crazy now.
Anduin, who probably won't fight, just heal or shout "stop".
and give or take 30 alliance soldiers who aren't anything special.
The other leaders were not present so the alliance are significantly underpowered, even with the numbers.
I would shit bricks and run before even thinking about making demands. Supposedly later in the lore they settled some things but that won't sow in game.

The Alliance leaders were present, if you look after the cutscene. The Horde army here isn't as powerful as the Alliance one (Mainly because of the room being element-proof), which is why I have an issue with it.
I didn't know about the out-of-game agreements or whatever though, so that's good to know. Maybe they'll be referenced in the next book.

[Aquamonkey]

Click through the dialogue with the Alliance leaders after the cutscene.

Secondly, I don't see why Varian wouldn't demand the Forsaken leave Lordaeron. That kingdom still belongs to the Alliance,

This isn't even remotely true.

and it was foolish of them to not seize it back in WLK, during the Battle for the Undercity.

Varian tried.

[Larodar]

The other leaders were not present so the alliance are significantly underpowered, even with the numbers.
I would shit bricks and run before even thinking about making demands. Supposedly later in the lore they settled some things but that won't show in game.

They were not seen in the cinematic but if you were there to clear SoO, you would see that all the alliance faction leaders were present afer the encounter. I suggest not to include Blizzard's machinima making principles into this theorycrafting of yours.

[Mic_128]

Considering the warning offered by the Black Prince and the whole moral of his story ("One-faction dominated world would doom us all")

Are you sure about that? He was pretty pissed after hearing that Varian didn't absorb the Horde into the Alliance

[Disreali]

Varian is in no position to demand Lordaeron. I agree, in terms of the lore it should be Alliance land (though I'm realistic enough to realize it will NEVER happen because game mechanics), but he has no leg to stand on. The Horde has been crushed...in Kalimdor. That's why he's able to force them out of Ashenvale, and is presumbely free to build a garrison/fort/whatever near the ruins of Theramore.
The Eastern Kingdoms are another matter entirely. The Forsaken failed to conquer Gilneas, but they held Silverpine and stopped the Alliance advance at Andorhal. Forsaken territorial integrity never wavered throughout the war. Victorious or not, the Alliance can't force the Forsaken out of Lordaeron. Though they are in a position to check their expansion, now that the Horde as a whole has been weakened.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you sure about that? He was pretty pissed after hearing that Varian didn't absorb the Horde into the Alliance

Yeah, Wraithion's endgame was "hope the Alliance wins, dismantles the Horde, and unifies Azeroth." He doesn't believe a divided Azeroth can withstand the Legion's onslaught.

- - - Updated - - -

As for element proofing, Garrosh is defeated so the likelyhood of it still being there is slim considering his dark shaman probably ran off or surrendered now that their Warchief is in chains.

Beating Garrosh doesn't suddenly fix the fact that the Dark Shamans tortured the elements. The elements need time to heal and adjust. Thrall was probably still cut off by the time Varian gave his ultimatum. He could only melee, and Thrall sucks at melee.

Plus Blizz admitted that the Alliance won the war and that they had a hard time coming up with a reason why the Alliance would just leave Orgrimmar. So that tells me that in the devs' minds the Alliance had the upper hand and could have taken out the Horde's leadership had Varian decided to go that route.

[Disreali]

Eh, he nearly lost to Garrosh in the Mak'Gora that set up Wrath Horde-side. Garrosh kicks his ass in SoO after he fails to summon the elements. Garrosh kicks his ass again in the duel in Nagrand until he decides to go G-d Mode Shaman. Maybe he just sucks when it comes to Garrosh, but most (if not all) scenes of him engaged in melee in WoW show him on the losing end of things.

[Trassk]

Secondly, I don't see why Varian wouldn't demand the Forsaken leave Lordaeron. That kingdom still belongs to the Alliance

Thats the biggest crock of crap ever, and any alliance fan saying thia demonstrates they have not just a bias view of the lore, but a shallow one too.
The forsaken ARE the lordearonians who died to Arthas and who after being raised gained there freedom and memories. There is no law written down that sentient, free thinking undead denizens of such a land are exempt from it being their land if they are raised from the dead.

no matter how much the alliance bitches about it, lordearon belongs to the true lorderonians, the forsaken.

[Disreali]

There are living Lordaeronians currently living as refugees in Stormwind and who have remained loyal to the Alliance. Do they not get a say in who owns their land?

[Trassk]

There are living Lordaeronians currently living as refugees in Stormwind and who have remained loyal to the Alliance. Do they not get a say in who owns their land?

If they ran off to another land, no, that seems to be a running theme of the alliance though.

The alliance attitude of charging into other lands and claiming that land for there own, but doing it in such a way they whitewash themselves when doing it, is also a long running theme of the alliance.

but we're not get into that, Varian has no cause to call for the forsaken to leave there homes. As the story went, when the forsaken denizens tried to return home after gaining their freedom from the scourge, the still living relatives just saw them as monsters and cast them out, so the forsaken have nothing to owe the alliance

Gilneas of course was a straight up invasion of a seperate kingdom so nothing short of closing off the greymane wall will separate the forsaken from there.

[Kayb]

Varian is not an idiot. He knows the Alliance would die if the Horde wasn't around to keep them strong. The Alliance NEEDS the Horde, and vice versa. All the major threats to the world have been defeated only when the two factions work together. One faction alone can't keep Azeroth safe. It will always be this way.

[Zaelsino]

That's the point. He didn't learn anything from Pandaria and instead opted to support the one-faction system in typical Black Dragon fashion, which is then pointed out why it's wrong.

Tong the Fixer: Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria!
Tong the Fixer: You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white, Darkness and light.
Tong the Fixer: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this?
Tong the Fixer: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG.
Tong the Fixer: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another.
Tong the Fixer: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?

That exchange actually annoyed me; I found Wrathion's side of the argument much more reasonable, even if they did depict him as a brat so we'd be less inclined to go along with him. This idea Tong has that the factions need to butcher each other in bloody wars for the rest of their existences in order to "make them strong" is pretty damn questionable compared to Wrathion's solution of absorbing one into the other, which would let them focus on the various world-ending threats as a cohesive force.

[nonameelf]

Varian is not an idiot. He knows the Alliance would die if the Horde wasn't around to keep them strong. The Alliance NEEDS the Horde, and vice versa. All the major threats to the world have been defeated only when the two factions work together. One faction alone can't keep Azeroth safe. It will always be this way.

Constant, unending war does not make anyone stronger. It makes everyone weaker.

That's the point. He didn't learn anything from Pandaria and instead opted to support the one-faction system in typical Black Dragon fashion, which is then pointed out why it's wrong.

Tong the Fixer: Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria!
Tong the Fixer: You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white, Darkness and light.
Tong the Fixer: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this?
Tong the Fixer: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG.
Tong the Fixer: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another.
Tong the Fixer: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?

Tong is retarded.