Why Didn't Varian Make Any Demands?

[fzhfzh]

I don't think it's so much about apology as it is that the orcs still venerate the old hat despite the horrible things they did. The NElves and Draenei condemn those that went off the deep end. Illidan was literally on their side and fought to defend Azeroth, but the NElves were about to execute him for being too reckless.

The BElves venerate their royal family... but not Kael. It doesn't even seem like they care about the good he did early on. It pmuch all got wiped away by his actions in the end. Same with Arthas, nobody gives 2 shits about the good he did before his fall.

I don't think orcs still venerate those that fell to demon influence like Gul'dan or Blackhand. Garrosh even despise them so much that he went to the other extreme. For Orgrim, I would argue that he didn't do any horrible things, he might have made mistakes such as trusting Gul'dan for the 2nd time but on the whole he did more rights than wrongs, even the wrongs he did was not out of ill intentions but for the good of his people. Moreover, the last deed he did was sacrificing himself while freeing his people from human enslavement.

Illidan is kind of a mixed bag, he defends Azeroth against demons, but at the same time he always falls to the temptations of the power of the demons, so he is indeed someone dangerous to keep around.

[Laukkanen]

You have no idea what it means your entire system be based on shaman practice, and disobey it.
Even doubt it was 'weird', the most good orcs still obeyed them even while doubting, Durotan didn't drink the blood because of Nerzhul message, not because he had doubts, because many had doubts and still went with what their ancestors tell
You also ignore that all this problem wouldn't exist if Draenei plan wasn't to just come, let planet f*cked by burning legion (like countless others) then take the spaceship (lol...) and leave

blaming the draenei before you even consider to give the orcs any responsibility for their own actions... that's cute I guess.

ive noticed its absolutely no point in arguing with you because you will defend the orcs no matter what and find the most obscure and out of the blue races/characterts to blame rather than the orcs

the orcs are responsibility for their own fucking practing of shamanism, if you're so stupid to not even notice when the ancestors start to give you some really weird advice you really don't deserve the ancestors to guide you.

Did the orcs never kind of like, write down what the ancestors thought and in some way form patterns "this is reasonable for what the ancestors might want us to do"? all of a sudden the ancestors say "kill all draenei" and they all go "yeah, that's waht we need to do now" without even considering what the ancestors have told them before?

you're making the orcs look even dumber by claiming that, but oh well.

last post for me in the lore forum. there's no point in arguing when you've decided that the orcs cant do wrong and everyone around them are responsible for their actions.

draeniei, burning legion, night elves, human, ogres. I'd like to be an orc and just kill stuff and blame something else. that'd be sweet.

[Aquamonkey]

Did the orcs never kind of like, write down what the ancestors thought and in some way form patterns "this is reasonable for what the ancestors might want us to do"? all of a sudden the ancestors say "kill all draenei" and they all go "yeah, that's waht we need to do now" without even considering what the ancestors have told them before?

The ancestors didn't say "kill all Draenei." The orcs decided to do that on their own. The ancestors said the Draenei were a dire threat plotting against the orcs. The more reasonable ones understood that the children were innocent of the machinations of the adults.

[sam86]

blaming the draenei before you even consider to give the orcs any responsibility for their own actions... that's cute I guess.

ive noticed its absolutely no point in arguing with you because you will defend the orcs no matter what and find the most obscure and out of the blue races/characterts to blame rather than the orcs

the orcs are responsibility for their own fucking practing of shamanism, if you're so stupid to not even notice when the ancestors start to give you some really weird advice you really don't deserve the ancestors to guide you.

Did the orcs never kind of like, write down what the ancestors thought and in some way form patterns "this is reasonable for what the ancestors might want us to do"? all of a sudden the ancestors say "kill all draenei" and they all go "yeah, that's waht we need to do now" without even considering what the ancestors have told them before?

you're making the orcs look even dumber by claiming that, but oh well.

last post for me in the lore forum. there's no point in arguing when you've decided that the orcs cant do wrong and everyone around them are responsible for their actions.

draeniei, burning legion, night elves, human, ogres. I'd like to be an orc and just kill stuff and blame something else. that'd be sweet.

Let's ignore that Draenei look exactly like the most danger demons in the world, of course they don't look suspicious at all (while I can't search for it now, i do remember that either Durotan or Ogrim believed that Draenei are indeed evil because of how they look)
You want to say Orcs were stupid and naive? That's probably 1st or 2nd line in Rise of Horde, it isn't something that is hidden, yes they were idiots and they believed their fake ancestors.
Does that make orcs idiots? No, they simply - like taurens - believe in their ancestors blindly, and believe in their guidance, a basic element for any shamanitic race, only alliance 'race' who has same idea is Furbolgs I guess, but blizzard decided to never let them be alliance because reasons.
We have on other hand Draenei trusting blindly a naaru, a light creature (whose motives can be as evil as Sargeras himself), tell them to travel from planet to planet, dooming uncounted number of creatures let them suffer end by burning legion, and just pack to spaceship (lol...) and run away. At least Orcs you had to trick them to condemn other races, Draenei didn't need a trick, they will do it without a heartbeat

[Darth-Piekus]

Seriously?Are you now trying in vain to pull the appearance? Have you run out of excuses? That is a low blow that is also pointless. Apart from the Night Elves noone else knew how the Burning Legion looked like or how the draenei looked like.

[Arrashi]

Funny thing about that. When Thrall first heard Velen arrived on Azeroth, he was like "Awww, crap!"

He probably realised what kind of shit is likely to follow velens coming. Tho in azeroth case it doesn't matter.

[Uriel]

Varian is smarter than he appears.

What does a Leader wants most? Power and if he already has it keeping it. The Alliance was formed to help each other against this new threat which called themselves "the Horde"

Although he has been absent for quite a while the Factionleeaders made him their High King and leader of the whole bunch. So imagine that there isn't a threat and more. There is nothing to be afraid of. Do they still need an Alliance? Do they still need a High King leading them? I'd say No and Varian think so too.

So by letting the Horde live he remained in his position, preaching his people that the Horde is still out there and that "He" will end them if they do something wrong.
What does that tell the average Stormwind citizen? "As long as Varian is in charge, I am rather save".

Varian uses the Horde to stear fear in his people so they turn to him and support him thinking that he will be their saviour.

Its actually just the same as in Real Life. Almost every nation uses the possible threat by Terrorists to justify the increasing monitoring and restriction of their citizen.

Well played High King!

[sam86]

Seriously?Are you now trying in vain to pull the appearance? Have you run out of excuses? That is a low blow that is also pointless. Apart from the Night Elves noone else knew how the Burning Legion looked like or how the draenei looked like.

Yeah, horde stayed for 200 years with night elves, and they avoided talking them on purpose or have any relation, and knew that burning legion and demons are coming and night elves have no idea about that, and their plan was to - like countless other planets - when burning legion come just pack and leave, not stay and fight
Or that apply to Draenei?
Also didn't nelfs fight burning legion before? Is there any unit in Burning Legion that looks like orcs (or humans, or any race except Draenei) ?

[Darth-Piekus]

What are you even talking about? That response is completely out of topic and never happened.

[sam86]

What are you even talking about? That response is completely out of topic and never happened.

The response is directly at the topic, you said that i 'lost ideas' that i used the looking point, while there are many points here
1) The Draenei are looking exactly like the most evil demons in world, the eredar look exact same as Draenei, we saw that in sunwell before, eredar apparently have the ability to look exactly like Draenei or change, in Rise of the Horde, there is mention that Draenei look suspiciously like demons
2) You mentioned that nelfs attacked orcs for that reasons, doesn't make sense since nelfs were only Azeroth race in that time who did fight the burning legion, and burning legion doesn't have any orc (or any other race except Draenei at that time) in their ranks, so orcs 100% didn't look like demons, they did however have fel magic touch, but alliance practice warlock arts since long time so it isn't a point on orcs, alone at least
3) you compare night elf attack on orcs, with orcs attack on draenei, completely different setting, nelf attack orc on sight, orc had no contact (or at that time, any sentient race on eastern kingdom) with nelfs in first place, they had no plan of invasion, and they surely weren't planning that as soon burning legion come they will go to spaceship (lol...) and leave planet to be screwed, draenei did that before

Now is my post clear?

[Darth-Piekus]

Do you want to know why Cenarius and the Night Elves attacked the Orcs? They felt their Demon Taint on them. They already knew of the Burning Legion. They knew their taint. They felt their taint on the Orcs. Is that clear enough?

Now tell me. How did the Orcs knew that the Draenei were looking exactly like the Eredar since they haven't even met the Legion. Since they haven't even seen the Legion?

BTW Warlocks to the Alliance were added in game for gameplay probably reasons. I can't recall Warlocks before the Orcs started practising that art of demon magic.

See how that excuse went down the drain? Bottom Line is that you are comparing Apples with Oranges. The Night Elves felt the Demon Taint on the Orcs and passed them as agents of the Legion. The Orcs on the other hand haven't even seen the Legion so it would be impossible to know how the Legion looked like or how the Draenei Looked like. Instead they got manipulated by Sargeras impersonating Dead Orc Ancestors to make them attack the Draenei. If you wish to excuse the Orcs for their actions use something better.

Maraad was right. With their superior technology perhaps they should have done an Exterminatus Planet Glassing on the Orcs cause this race only exists to cause problems wherever they go.

[Deleted]

Maraad was right. With their superior technology perhaps they should have done an Exterminatus Planet Glassing on the Orcs cause this race only exists to cause problems wherever they go.

Friendship is magic

[Darth-Piekus]

Friendship is Magic but there are times where there is a race who simply doesn't want to understand so in their case Exterminatus is Magic.

[Disreali]

Now is my post clear?

Yes. You're trying to excuse the orcs' genocide of the Draenei by claiming the Draenei looked funny.

[Darth-Piekus]

From what I understand he is trying to pull the appearance excuse even though the Orcs never met the Legion before so it was impossible to know if the Draenei looked like the Legion. I mean he is starting to go out of excuses. I wonder what will be the next one.

[Aquamonkey]

Now tell me. How did the Orcs knew that the Draenei were looking exactly like the Eredar since they haven't even met the Legion. Since they haven't even seen the Legion?

It was actually quite obvious to Ner'zhul and Gul'dan that Kil'jaeden looked like the Draenei.

[Darth-Piekus]

Nerzhul and Guldan saw Sargeras disguised as their ancestors giving them lies. I don't think they ever saw his true form.

[Aquamonkey]

Nerzhul and Guldan saw Sargeras disguised as their ancestors giving them lies. I don't think they ever saw his true form.

Of course not, Sargeras never went anywhere near Draenor. Kil'jaeden appeared to both Ner'zhul and Gul'dan in person as himself.

[Darth-Piekus]

Sorry my mistake. I meant Kiljaeden.Did he appeared as himself or in the form of their ancestors?

[sam86]

Do you want to know why Cenarius and the Night Elves attacked the Orcs? They felt their Demon Taint on them. They already knew of the Burning Legion. They knew their taint. They felt their taint on the Orcs. Is that clear enough?

Or maybe because the burning legion was actually in Ashenvale, Mannaroth was walking around with dreadlords, but for some reason nelfs only 'noticed' them after they killed both humans and orcs, makes more sense right?

Now tell me. How did the Orcs knew that the Draenei were looking exactly like the Eredar since they haven't even met the Legion. Since they haven't even seen the Legion?

Maybe a legend, old stories, they didn't clear that part, but it is pretty much a part of culture that horns and hooves are tradition to demon (with wings, Draenei didn't have wings), blame blizzard for not clear that part.

BTW Warlocks to the Alliance were added in game for gameplay probably reasons. I can't recall Warlocks before the Orcs started practising that art of demon magic.

First official warlock act was a gnome warlock in ToC, warlocks are pretty much standard of alliance since ages, not just 'gameplay' purpose, this is first time i hear that alliance don't have warlocks and just appear in game

See how that excuse went down the drain? Bottom Line is that you are comparing Apples with Oranges. The Night Elves felt the Demon Taint on the Orcs and passed them as agents of the Legion. The Orcs on the other hand haven't even seen the Legion so it would be impossible to know how the Legion looked like or how the Draenei Looked like. Instead they got manipulated by Sargeras impersonating Dead Orc Ancestors to make them attack the Draenei. If you wish to excuse the Orcs for their actions use something better.

It was KJ, Sargeras was playing with humans, and i don't need a better excuse, i'm not trying to convince someone who refuse official lore statement quotes, you aren't only one who read here i'm sure
Orcs had 'demon taint', so why nelfs attacked humans too? the 'demon taint' was because there was actual demons in Ashenvale, Mannaroth was completely free and went to that fountain and cursed it with his blood (he is very agile for that size it seems), along with a dreadlord, and he stayed, and even met Grom and the orcs after they got cursed to stay alive, all that time and nelfs still 'afk can't see a behemoth giant Annihilation creature', nelfs are described as xenophobes at least during wc3 time, they didn't attack orcs because of a demon taint or anything,1 they attacked them because of pure hatred to outsiders, Taurens were getting wiped out from Centaurs and they know nelfs exist since dawn of history and still didn't think to go to them, they know that nelfs will kill them too even if Taurens are considered the most good heart race in wow.
Tyrande saw outsiders are "Mongols and nothing else" (exact words), and she was talking about humans not orcs in that part, even Malfurion had a more kind heart, strangely he has total black heart for his brother, who was presented (in wc3 RoC & TFT) as someone who just want to do the better good for the world, but that is another topic

Maraad was right. With their superior technology perhaps they should have done an Exterminatus Planet Glassing on the Orcs cause this race only exists to cause problems wherever they go.

Or something better, if we wiped out Eredar race from existence, there will be no more burning legion since most of Eredar form the high ranks and lead the legion itself, and with Sargeras mia literally eredar are the ones who doing the most evil in world now, his exact race.
A bonus was if we removed humans from warcraft universe, without both those races orcs won't be tricked by burning legion (no draenei for that reason) or even destroy Dreanor, and Sargeras won't be able to do anything since no ignorant reckless human to manipulate and use their greed