Now that we can "ninja" "dps" items..

[Succath]

Non spirit items should always go to DPS first since spirit is a pure healer stat now.

So how would that go with items who do not have Spirit.
dont forget only a few items have spirit these days. (trinkets,Rings, neck and cloak)

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Disc was already in this boat in MoP. We didn't need spirit. Prior to 6.0, BiS was Double Amp, after it was either double amp or amp + bboy. If you has absurdly low spirit before 6.0 then you would get the siegecrafter trinket, but most never got that low, nor needed it.

And the boat is still the same, dps will get it before healers.

As has already been said, healers are almost never the barrier to hardcore progression. Either you need to kill the boss faster or the dps need to avoid the fire more or you can just get another healer if there's no hard dps requirement. And as such, healers are never going to be the priority to gear up.

I hated it so much when my guild shoved all spirit related items to me instantly, but were discussing it every time i said i dint need sspirit, it and trying for "DPS" gear instead.

[Cerus]

So how would that go with items who do not have Spirit.
dont forget only a few items have spirit these days. (trinkets,Rings, neck and cloak)

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I hated it so much when my guild shoved all spirit related items to me instantly, but were discussing it every time i said i dint need sspirit, it and trying for "DPS" gear instead.

Obviously I was referring to slots that CAN have spirit on them. Armor pieces should be given out via whatever loot method you use.

For those slots that can have spirit, DPS should always get priority since any spirit item is an utter waste for them. Even IF said healer has enough spirit and could benefit from the DPS item since the DPS will NEVER benefit from a spirit item. I'm sure major loot drama is on the way because of the changes but it is what it is. It was better for a while when the armor type specialization went in but now you'll have rogues, monks, druids/pallies, DKs, warriors all competing for every single piece - I count 15 roles there? Hunters and shamans don't have much competition and clothies are the same as always. Ya win some ya lose some.

[Repefe]

Obviously I was referring to slots that CAN have spirit on them. Armor pieces should be given out via whatever loot method you use.

For those slots that can have spirit, DPS should always get priority since any spirit item is an utter waste for them. Even IF said healer has enough spirit and could benefit from the DPS item since the DPS will NEVER benefit from a spirit item. I'm sure major loot drama is on the way because of the changes but it is what it is. It was better for a while when the armor type specialization went in but now you'll have rogues, monks, druids/pallies, DKs, warriors all competing for every single piece - I count 15 roles there? Hunters and shamans don't have much competition and clothies are the same as always. Ya win some ya lose some.

It's not a black and white issue. Item without spirit is not automatically good for all dps specs. Holy priest for example wants multistrike the most, frost mage as well, but demo lock does not care that much about it. In masterloot situation priority on such item should be frost>holy>demo imho.

Then again maybe healers will want as much spirt as they can get and the argument will be moot.

[Succath]

It's not a black and white issue. Item without spirit is not automatically good for all dps specs. Holy priest for example wants multistrike the most, frost mage as well, but demo lock does not care that much about it. In masterloot situation priority on such item should be frost>holy>demo imho.

Then again maybe healers will want as much spirt as they can get and the argument will be moot.

Since the raids are not open yet i`m not sure how much spirit i would need. i dont have spirit on all items now.
At the moment i`m good as it is in 5 mans. but that will obviously change.

[Repefe]

Since the raids are not open yet i`m not sure how much spirit i would need. i dont have spirit on all items now.
At the moment i`m good as it is in 5 mans. but that will obviously change.

Yeah I think so too ... but we will have to wait and see. If you raid is dying because you lack throughput, no amount of spirit will help.

[Noradin]

PS. on-use haste is perfectly legitimate for dpses, I don't know why you think it's bad for dpses. That's blatantly false. It several cases/specs it's an advantage.

Where did I say it wasn't?

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Healers do not get dibs on dps caster gear because when the spirit gear drops they are the only ones that can use it.

Getting 'dibs' is not what this is about, this is about getting a share. I'm quite sure the healer/dd ratio in raidgroups is not the same as the general caster/spirit drop ratio.
I have seen this strikt 'gearing dds first' logic being applied before when sprit was less interresting to healers: First all the dds got allmost all items, the boss worked better and better, healers didn't see any loot for months on end. Finally when every last dd had every last item that could be an upgrade with enough imagination and the first few twinks of the raidlead were equiped 'in case we need a specific class for something any xy is not available' healers were to get loot. By then nobody else saw any reason to raid that instance anymore and attendance declined, bosses were left out.
With the next tier being released all dds surged back, healers didn't.

[Deleted]

I don't know why some people think disc doesn't need spirit. Did you play any challenge mode yet? Even cow spam drops your mana, and you will do at least cow spam in a raid that may last at least three times the time a challenge mode boss lasts.



I for one would love more spirit. If you haven't tried using a full set of 640 items yet that have no spirit, you are missing out on this knowledge. You can go oom easily in less than 5 minutes with no spirit gear if the output has to be big.


And I even use the spirit enchant.




PS. Those saying "only dpses should get big upgrades" are absolutely clueless and need more experience. It depends on the fight. And in most fights, there is no difference, you can be saved by the healers or you can be saved by the dps output.


I think the most important people to get gear first are just those that play better.

[anon5123]

I don't know why some people think disc doesn't need spirit.

Do you just enjoy starting arguments or what?

The post that was talking about "disc doesn't need spirit" was talking about MoP.

Seriously man. READ the post before making a snippy strawman reply.

[Deleted]

Do you just enjoy starting arguments or what?

The post that was talking about "disc doesn't need spirit" was talking about MoP.

Seriously man. READ the post before making a snippy strawman reply.

Do you want to go against me on a personal vendetta or what? If they think the information is USELESS in wod why do they even mention it? In fact, it started with someone saying "it never needed spirit" (what is it? a historical statement only? not really).

So really, stop trying to pretend what I said is not relevant.

I'm not interested in people trying to vent with attacks.




Also your account is obviously a sockpuppet name.

Who is your "real" account of the above?




Probably the guy that started it.

Didn't have the courage.

To admit error.

[Forgottenone]

Our guild is doing it like this:

- If there are numerous trinkets, some with spirit and some without then the spirit trinkets obviously go to healers and the non spirit caster trinkets are given to DPS then healers.
- If there are boots and NONE of them have spirit, all casters have an equal chance.

Reason being, we don't want healers becoming loot whores. Most members are making a BiS list anyways to help avoid it and if we do pug runs personal loot solves everything. We want ALL members to be gearing up equally but healers have access to spirit and non spirit gear, caster dps are limited to non spirit gear but we don't want healers feeling shafted.

"But "gear with spirit" is limited to rings/necks/cloaks and some trinkets.

All other slots are incapable of having spirit on them."

That was said earlier, in this scenario rings/neck/cloaks/trinkets without spirit would likely be prioritized to caster dps. All other slots incapable of having spirit on them would be fair game to all. If we allowed healers to go crazy on absolutely everything I have a feeling they would need on some sketchy items and take items just to "replace dem 630 heroic pieces" despite the fact that the epic they get would be replaced by a spirit piece later on.

But this is how my guild is doing it and everyone is fine

[anon5123]

Do you want to go against me on a personal vendetta or what?

This is the third or fourth time in the past week that you've misunderstood someone's post and then based your entire reply on that misunderstanding. Also known as a "strawman argument".

Nobody said that Disc in WoD doesn't need spirit. If you read the post, you would see:

Disc was already in this boat in MoP. We didn't need spirit. Prior to 6.0, BiS was Double Amp, after it was either double amp or amp + bboy.

Prior to 6.0, Disc did not need Spirit.

If they think the information is USELESS in wod why do they even mention it?

He brought it up because it was relevant to the topic that you brought up, about healers getting non-spirit gear. Disc was already in that situation in 5.4, because they needed very little spirit, so they were competing with DPS for non-spirit pieces.

Stop misunderstanding people. Slow down and read their posts before making a strawman argument against them. The insults and sockpuppet-accusations are much appreciated, though.

[Cerus]

It's not a black and white issue. Item without spirit is not automatically good for all dps specs. Holy priest for example wants multistrike the most, frost mage as well, but demo lock does not care that much about it. In masterloot situation priority on such item should be frost>holy>demo imho.

Then again maybe healers will want as much spirt as they can get and the argument will be moot.

Oh of course not black and white but priority should go to a DPS on spirit/non spirit capable slots IF it's an upgrade that's properly itemized. I think what will be more of an issue than this is the number of roles all competing on the same gear due to the armor changing. But I suppose it's better than a healer plate piece dropping and having no holy pally. Chances are now that there will be someone who can use it rather than DEing half the gear drops.

[anon5123]

Yeah, like someone else said:

-DPS get priority on ring/neck/cloak with no spirit
-Healer gets priority on ring/neck/cloak WITH spirit (duh)
-All other pieces are fair game for all casters, because they're incapable of getting spirit

Sounds fair enough to me.

But I'm still wondering, is Personal Loot enabled in Normal/Heroic modes? Because Personal Loot solves this argument quite nicely

[zephid]

Got some actual proof to back this up? Last time I checked, raiding was not all about DPS. You still need geared tanks and geared healers.

I guess the proof would be the fact that most top 10 raiding guilds prioritize dps ahead of healers when it comes to gear during the race.

[anon5123]

I guess the proof would be the fact that most top 10 raiding guilds prioritize dps ahead of healers when it comes to gear during the race.

What the bleeding-edge world-first guilds do, is not necessarily the best for general raiding.

I suppose in a perfect raid environment where all avoidable damage is avoided, yes, priority would be given to DPS. But such a raid group is a pipe dream for a majority of players.

[Deleted]

I guess the proof would be the fact that most top 10 raiding guilds prioritize dps ahead of healers when it comes to gear during the race.

I don't think you understand how a world first guild works in this game, and I do not blame you, very few people know the environment. The reality is, they do not go for "secure" and "reliable", they go for "PEW PEW FAST OUR BEST CHANCE". They WILL wipe and they WILL have undergeared healers if they think that's what it gets them the best chance for ONE SINGLE KILL out of tons of wipes that is the fastest in the world.

That being said, I think you are also seeing it simplistically since there are fights that do NOT take healers lightly.

e.g. are you aware that there are fights that required a boss being healed or lenghtened a burn with high HPS?




Plus, let's be honest here, if all the DPSes in this game utilized their defenses, healers could have less gear.


I just healed a challenge mode with a player that was standing in fire in most fights. I could have -20ilevel.

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Yeah, like someone else said:

-DPS get priority on ring/neck/cloak with no spirit
-Healer gets priority on ring/neck/cloak WITH spirit (duh)
-All other pieces are fair game for all casters, because they're incapable of getting spirit

Sounds fair enough to me.

But I'm still wondering, is Personal Loot enabled in Normal/Heroic modes? Because Personal Loot solves this argument quite nicely

It's a shitty system for guilds. If I have 4 priests or clothies, personal loot can screw us up. With group/master/need I can just get an item any of the other 3 didn't want.

This is especially important in a progressed raid team that 80-90% is VERY geared up and only the new or the new mains/alts need gear.

[Larynx]

Do you want to go against me on a personal vendetta or what? If they think the information is USELESS in wod why do they even mention it? In fact, it started with someone saying "it never needed spirit" (what is it? a historical statement only? not really).

So really, stop trying to pretend what I said is not relevant.

I'm not interested in people trying to vent with attacks.




Also your account is obviously a sockpuppet name.

Who is your "real" account of the above?




Probably the guy that started it.

Didn't have the courage.

To admit error.

Why do you

talk

like

this

Post more constructively.

[hugtlang]

Yeah, like someone else said:

-DPS get priority on ring/neck/cloak with no spirit
-Healer gets priority on ring/neck/cloak WITH spirit (duh)
-All other pieces are fair game for all casters, because they're incapable of getting spirit

Sounds fair enough to me.

This does sound fair and if they adjust the drop rate accordingly, the chance for anyone to get loot won't be different from before. But I also agree with the point made earlier in this thread that gearing up DPS benefits the raid morein progression fights (significantly from my own experience). I'm actually going to suggest to my guild that we give some priority to DPS on all non-spirit gears, other things being equal (and being a healer I'm probably in a better position to make that suggestion). On the other hand the "fair" rule may have the advantage of avoiding management issues. So it's going to be a trade-off decision to be made by the team. Anyway, I think it is now more important to set up explicit rules for gears that both healers and DPS can use.

[Deleted]

int + on use haste obviously is a good healer trinket.
a haste proc would be more of an dd item.

...yet obviously, healers are to be equipped last.
Better to consider that in bonus roll marks plan.

[Deleted]

Don't know why people are arguing about this. There's only two options really :

1) You're in a high end guild. Items get funneled to dps first. That's how it works in this format. It already has been explained quite clearly : dps moar = shorter fights = less heal needed. That's how it is and most healers raiding in this format are accepting their fate. Majority of them are not even in for the shinies but for the actual progression.

2) you're not on progression : There's a higher chance that your mates are going to stay in bad longer/won't be able to deal with encounter design properly or that your healer is not playing optimally. Well, there are no rules here really. As long as everybody is satisfied with guild's loot distribution rules ...

Furthermore, we still have 3 coins a week. That's something.