Spellsteal and Mana. Are we expected to wand again?

[Sosoulsu]

Why are you being a belittleling twat monkey? It is possible to go oom in a 5man dungeon by spellstealing, regardless of how good you are, if your team isn't helping out. Stop trying to promote yourself by demeaning others when you're shit yourself. How do i know this you may ask? Because you're selling point is 6/8 cm gold which is piss easy to get.

First: I'm not a 'twat-monkey', whatever that is. I'm a kawaii c@girl. Now, on to your well-worded reply:

Of course it's possible to go OOM in a 5man. That usually happens when you spam spellsteal on inconsequential buffs. Not every buff needs to be stolen. Choose when you use it based on current situation (like a good player would).
There's no point in spellstealing before an AoE-stun-chain goes off.

My 'selling point' is Realm Best for 4 dungeons last expansion. I mentioned 6/8 CM Gold because it is relevant to the current expansion, and since I haven't had a problem with mana while dealing with dispels in the content I've done, it should be implied that you shouldn't either; unless you're doing something differently and incorrectly.

You're the one having problems, not me - and it's making you mad enough to cry on forums about it.
I offer you the only advice that can be given with your problem: Get good.

[Deleted]

Of course it's possible to go OOM in a 5man. That usually happens when you spam spellsteal on inconsequential buffs. Not every buff needs to be stolen. Choose when you use it based on current situation (like a good player would).
There's no point in spellstealing before an AoE-stun-chain goes off.

My 'selling point' is Realm Best for 4 dungeons last expansion. I mentioned 6/8 CM Gold because it is relevant to the current expansion, and since I haven't had a problem with mana while dealing with dispels in the content I've done, it should be implied that you shouldn't either; unless you're doing something differently and incorrectly.

You're the one having problems, not me - and it's making you mad enough to cry on forums about it.
I offer you the only advice that can be given with your problem: Get good.

How would you approach the trash pack before 1st boss in Auchidoun as the only dispeller in your group ? There is no point in having spellsteal cost as much many as it does right now. Spellstealing all buffs shouldn't be punished in my opinion as that in itself is a trait of awareness for the common player.

[Sosoulsu]

How would you approach the trash pack before 1st boss in Auchidoun as the only dispeller in your group ? There is no point in having spellsteal cost as much many as it does right now. Spellstealing all buffs shouldn't be punished in my opinion as that in itself is a trait of awareness for the common player.

We've actually done Gold with 0 offensive-dispellers in the group o.o
We have a surplus of AoE stuns in our comp that we chain to great effect to avoid the annoying Shield from happening (we burst the Cleric down with AoE stuns layered).
the cast doesn't even go out - but if it does, I can easily spellsteal three mobs and continue DPSing for the pull. Frost and Fire don't care about mana unless they're OOM.

I still don't know what sort of situation you're getting yourself into where you're having this mana issue, but it's an issue that can easily be resolved with better coordination.
If you're complaining about it for heroics, I don't really know what to say about that. Hit your buttons 'till the mobs die.

[Deleted]

We've actually done Gold with 0 offensive-dispellers in the group o.o
We have a surplus of AoE stuns in our comp that we chain to great effect to avoid the annoying Shield from happening (we burst the Cleric down with AoE stuns layered).
the cast doesn't even go out - but if it does, I can easily spellsteal three mobs and continue DPSing for the pull. Frost and Fire don't care about mana unless they're OOM.

I still don't know what sort of situation you're getting yourself into where you're having this mana issue, but it's an issue that can easily be resolved with better coordination.
If you're complaining about it for heroics, I don't really know what to say about that. Hit your buttons 'till the mobs die.

The whole claim was directed at times not in a coordinated group. Im also not arguing that there's a problem moreso the fact that high mana tax is pointless. I only posted due to the fact that you were behaving like a cunt, trying to flex some kind of epeen.

[Deleted]

The whole claim was directed at times not in a coordinated group.

Why would you even attempt a gold run without a coordinated group? Or attempt a CM without coordination at all?

[Deleted]

Why would you even attempt a gold run without a coordinated group? Or attempt a CM without coordination at all?

Who's talking about cms?

[Sosoulsu]

The whole claim was directed at times not in a coordinated group. Im also not arguing that there's a problem moreso the fact that high mana tax is pointless. I only posted due to the fact that you were behaving like a cunt, trying to flex some kind of epeen.

In a non-coordinated group, you are doing heroics - content that is very easy even without dispels.
I still find dispelling 3 targets with void shell simple.

How am I behaving like a cunt, though? I posted my experience and why my experience would matter. You're posting about the cost of Spellsteal beign a problem. I'm telling you it isn't a problem, citing the content I've done without a problem with Spellsteal's current mana cost.

Get good.

[Henako]

I'm pretty happy with mages not being able to steal my Rejuv every other global. I'd like to keep it that way.

[Sosoulsu]

Who's talking about cms?

We have to assume that you mean CMs, a raid, or PvP - because that content is content that matters for dispelling properly.
I don't much care about raiding at the moment and am getting my other characters' golds finished - but I'm sure that the spellsteal mana cost isn't inhibitive in current raids. It's unlikely you have to use it enough to make it inhibitive; same as for CMs and heroic dungeons. In PvP, the mana cost may be more inhibitive - which is fine because it is a powerful ability.
Not only does it dispel; it STEALS the buff. That more than justifies the high mana cost.

I guess I'm just confused because you keep saying you're talking about non-coordinated content like Heroics - which can be completed by people in iLvl 610 gear with relative ease - and do not require so many dispels so close together as to make you go OOM.
Unless, of course, you're over-spamming it like a bad Mage.

[gallamann]

Well, in MC running with 30+ lazy asses, yeah its easy to oom on spellsteal ALways interesting to be the only person out of 40 trying to dispel the debuff, then that 8 second cooldown just adds insult to injury, lmao

[Invrlose]

What, specifically, are you having problems with that you feel the need to spam Spellsteal?
I have done 6/8 CMs at gold as a Mage, and I have not had issues with spellsteal's mana cost.
That is why I said "Get Good" - because it is that kind of issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[Deleted]

People do realise that spamming "get good" is obnoxious as hell and doesn't do anything to improve the point they're making, right ?
Offer some insight and solutions - some people did this - instead of trying to be cool.

[Sosoulsu]

[nvrlose;30968604]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority[/QUOTE]
Don't start 'logical fallacy logical fallacy!' with me, lol
An example of the content I'm doing isn't the same as 'appealing to authority'. It just gives context for why I have the opinion I have.
That is not a logic misstep.

I have not had any mana issues while dispelling as a mage. I keep asking what people are doing to have Mana issues. I dispel dangerous things (2-stacks of the last boss of Bloodmaul; void barrier off first trash in Auchindoun) and I have never needed to wand. I've been in the low-thrid of my Mana pool, but that isn't OOM - and I have enough mana to dispel again before I even need to think about mana.

People do realise that spamming "get good" is obnoxious as hell and doesn't do anything to improve the point they're making, right ?
Offer some insight and solutions - some people did this - instead of trying to be cool.

I've offered my stance on it, and why I think the mana cost is Ok.
What is the argument from the other side?
How many times are you dispelling per pull? How often?
What benefit do you gain from the buffs you dispel?

Those are the questions that simply haven't been answered in this thread - and why I keep saying "Get good".
Because if you are having mana problems while doing the currently-available content, you really do just need to get better at judging when and what to dispel.

It's like they're trying to dispel all the debuffs off people in PvP and asking why they go OOM. It's ridiculous, lol

[Deleted]

I have 8/8 gold cm from this expac, raid in the last tiers 4th best guild in the world, obtained realm best time in cm on all dungeons in one of the most populated pve realms in Europe, parsed in the 98th percentile spanning across 3 specs in 3 tiers on every boss and still think spellsteal mana cost is ridiculous. Not because im struggling at all with the content, but because it makes no sense to punish people for wiping clean buffs from mobs. it expresses an overview which isnt common in the average player, something i feel should be rewarded.

spamming get good is just obnoxious and pointless. This turned into an ego flex because you're narrow-minded and probably 14.

[Sosoulsu]

I have 8/8 gold cm from this expac, raid in the last tiers 4th best guild in the world, obtained realm best time in cm on all dungeons in one of the most populated pve realms in Europe, parsed in the 98th percentile spanning across 3 specs in 3 tiers on every boss and still think spellsteal mana cost is ridiculous. Not because im struggling at all with the content, but because it makes no sense to punish people for wiping clean buffs from mobs. it expresses an overview which isnt common in the average player, something i feel should be rewarded.

spamming get good is just obnoxious and pointless. This turned into an ego flex because you're narrow-minded and probably 14.

Now that our content accolades are out of the way, we can get to the logic of the matter:

Spellsteal isn't just a dispel - it 'steals' the buff.
I'll happily pay the mana on the last boss of bloodmaul since it means that every 3rd stack I get to send out the boss' magma burst at him.
I'll happily pay the mana cost if it means I get a 100k+ absorb-shield.
I'll happily pay the mana cost if it means I get +30% casting speed.
Mages do not get punished for dispelling. They get rewarded for knowing when and what to dispel (steal).

I think 6% more base-mana than Purge is a very small price to pay for such a utility. You're free to disagree, but I'd love to hear the logic you've worked through to come to the conclusion that Spellsteal's mana cost is high for what it does.

You can dispel 5 times in a row and still have mana to continue your DPS cycle uninterrupted.
There are exceedingly few instances where there are even 5 buffs to dispel available to spam Spellsteal 5 times in a row; and in those times, it's generally best to just keep DPSing after 2 or 3 steals.
Please cite situations where you would have to dispel 5 times in a row to ensure your group's survival - keeping in mind that you gain potentially massive benefits from the stolen buffs that can make most pulls with that many things to steal trivial.


This isn't an ego-flex. This is genuine confusion as to how you could have the opinion that you do. It seems entirely illogical to me.

[Deleted]

Even though others should help you out, they need to decrease mana cost, far too expensive. Like maybe half the cost would be a good thing.

[Azobank]

Be selective. Don't spellsteal things which doesn't need to be spellstealed.

On trash I only spellsteal killtarget but preferebly the mob casting the anoying thing is either interrupted or stunned. Kyrak doesn't cast his heal often enough that I need to spam it. So far I've killed the ads first and I couldn't care less if Kyrak himself healed. I remove heal on the target we kill.

Just because you can spellsteal doens't mean you've too.

[Sosoulsu]

Even though others should help you out, they need to decrease mana cost, far too expensive. Like maybe half the cost would be a good thing.

Spellsteal being less expensive than Purge makes 0 sense.
People seem to be forgetting that you STEAL the buff; not just remove it.

[Charge me Doctor]

Now that our content accolades are out of the way, we can get to the logic of the matter:

Spellsteal isn't just a dispel - it 'steals' the buff.
I'll happily pay the mana on the last boss of bloodmaul since it means that every 3rd stack I get to send out the boss' magma burst at him.
I'll happily pay the mana cost if it means I get a 100k+ absorb-shield.
I'll happily pay the mana cost if it means I get +30% casting speed.
Mages do not get punished for dispelling. They get rewarded for knowing when and what to dispel (steal).

I think 6% more base-mana than Purge is a very small price to pay for such a utility. You're free to disagree, but I'd love to hear the logic you've worked through to come to the conclusion that Spellsteal's mana cost is high for what it does.

You can dispel 5 times in a row and still have mana to continue your DPS cycle uninterrupted.
There are exceedingly few instances where there are even 5 buffs to dispel available to spam Spellsteal 5 times in a row; and in those times, it's generally best to just keep DPSing after 2 or 3 steals.
Please cite situations where you would have to dispel 5 times in a row to ensure your group's survival - keeping in mind that you gain potentially massive benefits from the stolen buffs that can make most pulls with that many things to steal trivial.


This isn't an ego-flex. This is genuine confusion as to how you could have the opinion that you do. It seems entirely illogical to me.

A lot of magic stuff has marked as non-spellstealable.
Spellsteal often gives you nothing (a huge HoT effect while you are constantly at full health? Right, shitty) except gutting you down for constant usage of it.
Yeah, you can easily get 100k absorb or bloodlust without negative effect on trash packs, no one really complains about it.
Mages do get punished for it, it's it mana cost and GCD loss (ever needed to spellsteal healing buff from 2nd boss in blackrock when you have 1,5 pyroblast available and you just finish casting fireball? Yeah, you often lose that extra pyros that could end up with 5k+ combustion, but who the fuck cares? Mages are dispellers now! I'll probably stay in green ooze and top healing meters for fucks sake)

I won't comment on how much these 6% is for Arcane, but for fire or frost, indeed, it's not that much. Unless you have to dispel every 10 seconds, then after 5th or 6th dispel you won't be able to cast a fireball for at least 2 seconds, or throw bloodlust+fireball+inferno+pyro+combustion combo because it eats away 25% of you mana in a short time.

And for this bloodmaul example you bring, these is stuff to dispel only if someone fucks up and skip interrupts of huge nuke (not really an issue with blood DK or a warrior tanking, since you can get 10% damage buff and DK can steal this spell to throw it back at boss). I remember thinking like you when i've done this HC fight for a second time, i asked to not interrupt his spells so i can get these buffs. I've run out of mana to continue my rotation after 5th spellsteal as fire mage. It was just 4 seconds downtime (notice that i don't have mana to 6th spellsteal, notice that i don't have mana to instant pyro, wait, fireball, pyro, inferno, no mana for pyro, wait, pyro, no mana for combustion, wait, combustion is too late, fireball, rotation is OK now).
It's not an issue when you have to dispel every 30 or so seconds, but these is a lot of classes that suit for doing this much better (shamans or priests for example)

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Be selective. Don't spellsteal things which doesn't need to be spellstealed.

On trash I only spellsteal killtarget but preferebly the mob casting the anoying thing is either interrupted or stunned. Kyrak doesn't cast his heal often enough that I need to spam it. So far I've killed the ads first and I couldn't care less if Kyrak himself healed. I remove heal on the target we kill.

Just because you can spellsteal doens't mean you've too.

That's the same attitude i have on any class that can dispel, including mage, you don't spellsteal to get enormous benefit like you used to in WotLK for example, spellsteal got the same treating as mind control, it's still fun and somehow viable in PvP, but it's not that good as it used to be, It's just very expensive dispel. But when your group forces expects you to dispel things that marked as non-spellstealable (One situation i've read on priests forums in CM everbloom 2nd boss, he claimed that a mage was on dispel duty, while all magic stuff that exist in encounter marked as non-spellstealable AND they had TWO priests in a group, while almost all these buffs are completely avoidable) it's just infuriates me. Also you kn ow who the fucking best dispelers in the game? Fucking glad/prot warriors with stupid major glyph on their main ability, boom, no need to dispel anything, problem solved.

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Spellsteal being less expensive than Purge makes 0 sense.
People seem to be forgetting that you STEAL the buff; not just remove it.

Because things like 100k shield absorb or a HoT effect on a class that isn't supposed to take damage makes so much sense and worth spending GCD and extra mana, right.
Seriously, if the spellsteal could be glyphed to decompose the spellstolen buff and get different effect like spec exclusive proc or raw damage or to get your mana back over time it would be much better, but right now - this ability is shitty and very very niche. There is only two things iirc that benefit mage for spellstealing it, the 10/20/huge aoe buff from one of bosses and bloodlust from trash packs in the same dungeon. There is no buffs like this to steal anymore, no need to overestimate the effect spellsteal provides

[Sosoulsu]

A lot of magic stuff has marked as non-spellstealable.
Spellsteal often gives you nothing (a huge HoT effect while you are constantly at full health? Right, shitty) except gutting you down for constant usage of it.
Yeah, you can easily get 100k absorb or bloodlust without negative effect on trash packs, no one really complains about it.
Mages do get punished for it, it's it mana cost and GCD loss (ever needed to spellsteal healing buff from 2nd boss in blackrock when you have 1,5 pyroblast available and you just finish casting fireball? Yeah, you often lose that extra pyros that could end up with 5k+ combustion, but who the fuck cares? Mages are dispellers now! I'll probably stay in green ooze and top healing meters for fucks sake)

I won't comment on how much these 6% is for Arcane, but for fire or frost, indeed, it's not that much. Unless you have to dispel every 10 seconds, then after 5th or 6th dispel you won't be able to cast a fireball for at least 2 seconds, or throw bloodlust+fireball+inferno+pyro+combustion combo because it eats away 25% of you mana in a short time.

And for this bloodmaul example you bring, these is stuff to dispel only if someone fucks up and skip interrupts of huge nuke (not really an issue with blood DK or a warrior tanking, since you can get 10% damage buff and DK can steal this spell to throw it back at boss). I remember thinking like you when i've done this HC fight for a second time, i asked to not interrupt his spells so i can get these buffs. I've run out of mana to continue my rotation after 5th spellsteal as fire mage. It was just 4 seconds downtime (notice that i don't have mana to 6th spellsteal, notice that i don't have mana to instant pyro, wait, fireball, pyro, inferno, no mana for pyro, wait, pyro, no mana for combustion, wait, combustion is too late, fireball, rotation is OK now).
It's not an issue when you have to dispel every 30 or so seconds, but these is a lot of classes that suit for doing this much better (shamans or priests for example)

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That's the same attitude i have on any class that can dispel, including mage, you don't spellsteal to get enormous benefit like you used to in WotLK for example, spellsteal got the same treating as mind control, it's still fun and somehow viable in PvP, but it's not that good as it used to be, It's just very expensive dispel. But when your group forces expects you to dispel things that marked as non-spellstealable (One situation i've read on priests forums in CM everbloom 2nd boss, he claimed that a mage was on dispel duty, while all magic stuff that exist in encounter marked as non-spellstealable AND they had TWO priests in a group, while almost all these buffs are completely avoidable) it's just infuriates me. Also you kn ow who the fucking best dispelers in the game? Fucking glad/prot warriors with stupid major glyph on their main ability, boom, no need to dispel anything, problem solved.

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Because things like 100k shield absorb or a HoT effect on a class that isn't supposed to take damage makes so much sense and worth spending GCD and extra mana, right.
Seriously, if the spellsteal could be glyphed to decompose the spellstolen buff and get different effect like spec exclusive proc or raw damage or to get your mana back over time it would be much better, but right now - this ability is shitty and very very niche. There is only two things iirc that benefit mage for spellstealing it, the 10/20/huge aoe buff from one of bosses and bloodlust from trash packs in the same dungeon. There is no buffs like this to steal anymore, no need to overestimate the effect spellsteal provides

You may be talking about just random heroics; but in CMs, spellstealing the final boss' magma-burst is freaking awesome. As is stealing the bloodlusts, damage-bonuses, and shields/heals you find in many CMs.

If you don't think a 6% added cost over other dispels is worth it to have situational access to performance-increasing buffs, I frankly think you are a bad player.
A "Class that isn't supposed to be taking damage" still sometimes takes incidental damage - and those OP mob-buffs trivialize that damage.

I haven't had to throttle my dispelling at all. I've basically been using it at-will, mostly to increase my own performance. The bloodlusts on the mobs in bloodmaul, the void shell (if it gets off) in Auchindoun and the heals in UBRS - I've been stealing them at-will without regard to my mana; so it's very, very strange to me that people would be complaining about its mana-cost as non-Arcane mages.

This entire topic has become pretty hilarious.

And for this bloodmaul example you bring, these is stuff to dispel only if someone fucks up and skip interrupts of huge nuke (not really an issue with blood DK or a warrior tanking, since you can get 10% damage buff and DK can steal this spell to throw it back at boss)

This, particularly. We just let the cast go off every time and I just spellseal every time he gains a 2nd stack; spellstealing one stack if the add is up to send the Magma Burst out. The healing isn't all that stressful, and the boss dies noticeably faster with a Mage than with a Hunter who cannot spellsteal to use the boss' own mechanic against him.

To be blunt: I think you are either bad, or not thinking.