Does anyone actually learn raid content on thier own and without using add ons

[Trickname]

I did from Vanilla to around mid-wrath at which point my guilds have always required people to watch videos, read tactics and at-least have DBM installed if you want to join the raid.

Then again there are so many deadly things going on in today's boss fights that I'd probably watch the videos anyway.

[Deleted]

I find it's quite a bit of learning at the actual encounters, even if you read up before the raid. For example, I've studied the four first bosses of Highmaul now and I feel like I understand their mechanics, but I don't doubt I will make mistakes when I'm actually there doing the fights, it's just a different experience when you're there in the fight trying to do your job while still keeping everything in mind. I would think it would be interesting to go into a fight "spoiler free" and learn it over time by just wiping over and over, but I realize my guild would not enjoy that, so obviously I do what I can to be prepared.

[TwoNineMarine]

I believe the Devs stated before that they design fights now with certain addons in mind. I can't recall where I saw that but pretty sure that's how I understood it.

[Nachturnal]

Watching strategy guides or having raid addons does not equate a 100% Win chance when you raid. It just gives you more knowledge of what to expect. Addons like DBM for example are more just timers for boss mechanics, not some bot that does all the work for you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to reduce frustration and having a larger understanding of the fights you'll face. In the end, it's up to the player to execute their role to the best of their ability while being aware of mechanics. Also, long gone are the days of simple mechanics.

Fights like Tectus and Ko'ragh will really test awareness, and the use of timers will definitely make it a more smooth process for our healers.

As I stated before, even with these addons and guides, the encounters are still trial and error.

[Azaile-]

many people do (that is evident when they fail at simple mechanics) but anyone who is really serious about it tends to go in with some idea of what to expect, probably from a video or written guide. Addons don't usually end up being developed until more people reach encounters that require them.

I dont think have a video or strategy before seeing the fight really ruins it though, there is always things that you can only learn by doing them and experiencing them, seeing something happen and how you react to it are 2 very different things.

[Notdev]

Boss mod addons and other addons that help you keep track of procs like weak auras leave you with more brainpower to improve on other areas. Mostly personal performance.

I'm sure raiding with 0 raid relevant addons is doable by plenty of people, but plain and simple they'll do better with those addons.

[Varabently]

Honestly, if Blizz didn't want us to use addons, they wouldn't allow it. IMO, the encounters are made with addons in mind. If we didn't have addons you would still have people setting timers and shit, so it's pointless to try to play without them.

Also, there is an arms race between encounter designs and addons. Fights in MC for example are so simple that you don't need them, and were made even simpler with addons (see decursive). So blizz had to break those addons, make game changes around them, etc. Addons are a part of the game, and you shouldn't fight against them.

[SirBeef]

The people who use raiding addons use them to expand awareness, not take it away. If they destroyed situational awareness, then no one would use them.

There are too many boss abilities that are timers/cooldowns, don't have a default in-game display, and/or need to be preempted to justify the entire raid doing away with things like boss mods. Until Blizzard implements a better system for that, raids are always going to use them.

I am sure there are plenty of guilds out there that don't require addons or advance strategy planning. It's just rare that a guild with a more serious approach to progression would forgo available tools, since it can hinder you for no real reason. Nor do I think those things necessarily take away from the experience or raiding or mean you don't "learn" a boss. Even people who know what they're getting into still need to learn to execute the mechanics and still may need to adjust strategy to their own raid, and it's still way different to read something (or even see it on video) and experience it yourself.

Bosses all have tells for when abilities are going to go off, they say something, they do a different animation, and special lighting effect or color change, or something to that effect happens. You could use each one of the tells to do what you need to do. Is it the best way to do things? Not really. I mean some bosses are too big or areas they need to be tanked in have camera issues where it is hard to see them, a lot of healers are looking at player bars and wouldn't notice them. Timers lets you know when to expect those abilities to happen. All the information is there if you can pay attention to it.

[Deleted]

What the actual fuck? You go in there, wipe a few times, analyze logs and if it's not Mythic you will probably be fine for the first bosses. And DBM is absolutely not necessary for anything but bleeding edge; of course people use it, it makes things a ton easier. But don't act like it was required or you'd have to be top 3 world to get shit done without addons and preperation. That's only true for clearing the highest difficulty while being _undergeared_.

[SirBeef]

Watching strategy guides or having raid addons does not equate a 100% Win chance when you raid. It just gives you more knowledge of what to expect. Addons like DBM for example are more just timers for boss mechanics, not some bot that does all the work for you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to reduce frustration and having a larger understanding of the fights you'll face. In the end, it's up to the player to execute their role to the best of their ability while being aware of mechanics. Also, long gone are the days of simple mechanics.

Fights like Tectus and Ko'ragh will really test awareness, and the use of timers will definitely make it a more smooth process for our healers.

As I stated before, even with these addons and guides, the encounters are still trial and error.

For real, if they meant easy mode for us raiders then how come Mythic is not cleared in the day it is released? I only use boss mods for timers and announcements. Other than that, I have to move myself out of shit, taunt when needed, keep track of player aggro on adds, move the boss or adds to where they need to be, add ons do not do that for me and that is 95% of the fight.

[SirBeef]

What the actual fuck? You go in there, wipe a few times, analyze logs and if it's not Mythic you will probably be fine for the first bosses. And DBM is absolutely not necessary for anything but bleeding edge; of course people use it, it makes things a ton easier. But don't act like it was required or you'd have to be top 3 world to get shit done without addons and preperation. That's only true for clearing the highest difficulty while being _undergeared_.

I still do not think it is necessary for bleeding edge either if you can pay attention to every thing that is going on. Besides the bleeding edge groups have been testing this shit out for months before any information was given to mod makers. They know what is going on, they know what to do. They are used to increase performance and efficiency only. The same reason we all use them. To make it easier on all of us.

[Daerio]

What the actual fuck? You go in there, wipe a few times, analyze logs and if it's not Mythic you will probably be fine for the first bosses. And DBM is absolutely not necessary for anything but bleeding edge; of course people use it, it makes things a ton easier. But don't act like it was required or you'd have to be top 3 world to get shit done without addons and preperation. That's only true for clearing the highest difficulty while being _undergeared_.

Seems like analyzing logs is 'cheating' too if you want to look at it that way.

Arbitrary lines are arbitrary.

[SirBeef]

Who do you think writes all those guides? Who do you think creates the addon? Obviously there are people out there learning the fights on their own. The mechanics are part of the manual at this point(dungeon journal) so dealing with them and creating a strat is all about knowing the various classes and how to play the game. At one point it was all about experiencing the content and taking notes. It's more rewarding doing it yourself, however it can take a lot longer depending on your overall knowledge of the game and skill level.

We go into raids with a couple of strats in mind from other groups that have released information. After we see a boss or two we modify the strats to suit our group make up better and move on. We used to do our own strats in Vanilla before it was common to review strats prior to raiding. Now, with us having shots at realm firsts we prepare like most groups do ahead of time.

[DFu4ever]

I would imagine that Blizz designs current content assuming that add-ons will be used.

[Akshak]

I read up on the mechanics if I have the time to - moreso if I'm on one of my tank alts. Given my job and my wife's (I'm IT for a public school and she's a high school art teacher), I don't get home all the time at a decent hour and there's obviously dinner and chores to get done before playing. The 2 addons I run and always have are DBM and some form of a threat monitor (Skada or Omen) and I view neither as a crutch.

[SirBeef]

Seems like analyzing logs is 'cheating' too if you want to look at it that way.

Arbitrary lines are arbitrary.

So analyzing what you did is cheating? You are aware that Blizzard encourages these types of mods to help players? How is any of this cheating when the maker of the game encourages it and allows it and has since day one? The only add on I remember that would be cheating was the one that showed large colored areas to move to for boss abilities. It was projected to every player in the raid. Blizzard broke that one.

[Daerio]

So analyzing what you did is cheating?

Are you parsing your logs using a third-party website? (addon)

While at the same time disparaging using addons?

Yes, this argument is extremely silly.

arbitrary
based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

[SirBeef]

I read up on the mechanics if I have the time to - moreso if I'm on one of my tank alts. Given my job and my wife's (I'm IT for a public school and she's a high school art teacher), I don't get home all the time at a decent hour and there's obviously dinner and chores to get done before playing. The 2 addons I run and always have are DBM and some form of a threat monitor (Skada or Omen) and I view neither as a crutch.

With in game threat % displayed and color rings around nameplates that go from yellow to orange to red when you are gaining and get aggro, why do people still use omen or any threat meter? Not being sarcastic, I really want to know. We stopped using it in Cata when they added the in game aggro stuff.

[Sarvas]

I haven't used any Addons since Wrath. If I'm really having trouble on a boss I research or try and watch others as closely as I can without getting myself killed or someone else killed. To be honest I enjoy it much more. There's a sense of urgency and panic that I never felt while using DBM, excluding ICC heroic. I've debated getting one or two addons again for WoD, but so far I haven't needed them. We will see once the raiding begins.

[SirBeef]

Are you parsing your logs using a third-party website? (addon)

While at the same time disparaging using addons?

Yes, this argument is extremely silly.

I am not disparaging them at all I am saying they are not needed. We can all down the content without them, it would just take a lot longer. I never claimed to not use them. Also add ons are not cheating. The are endorsed by Blizzard. Blizzard breaks the ones that are cheating and only 1 comes to mind.