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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    The people who use raiding addons use them to expand awareness, not take it away. If they destroyed situational awareness, then no one would use them.

    There are too many boss abilities that are timers/cooldowns, don't have a default in-game display, and/or need to be preempted to justify the entire raid doing away with things like boss mods. Until Blizzard implements a better system for that, raids are always going to use them.

    I am sure there are plenty of guilds out there that don't require addons or advance strategy planning. It's just rare that a guild with a more serious approach to progression would forgo available tools, since it can hinder you for no real reason. Nor do I think those things necessarily take away from the experience or raiding or mean you don't "learn" a boss. Even people who know what they're getting into still need to learn to execute the mechanics and still may need to adjust strategy to their own raid, and it's still way different to read something (or even see it on video) and experience it yourself.
    I was going to come in here and basically say this exact same thing.

    Learning how to kill a boss has almost nothing to do with "discovering what the boss does" on your own, and everything to do with how you execute a strategy against the fight mechanics. This thread seems like a pointless whine thread to me.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Nopkplease View Post
    Outside of a few guilds in Beta, do any guilds out there try to raid without using addons and without reading spoilers and watching videos of all the content before they try to raid during a new tier?

    How does raiding can feel like any sense of accomplishment when you use a dozen addons that take away any sort of situational awareness that you would need to have or when you already know exactly what to expect and do for every encounter without learning it on your own developing your own strategies?

    Is raiding only about the end result and how fast you can get there and have nothing to do with the journey to get there?
    I get the impression that you have not raided before so I will answer your question with that assumption in mind.

    Raiders feel a sense of accomplishment from getting bosses dead. Using add-ons and watching videos helps with that process, but using add-ons and watching videos does not equal boss dying on 1st attempt. Add-ons do not take away from your situational awareness, they help it. So killing the boss comes as a result of executing well, which never happens immediately even when you know what to expect.

    If it were as simple as watching videos and using add-ons to perform flawlessly, then LFR wouldn't be such a trainwreck.

    Even world top 10 guilds will put in 150 pulls on a boss to kill it. Are they changing their strategy each time because they didn't watch videos? No. Typically, those guilds that are in there have a strategy in mind from pull 1. If something unexpected comes up, they adjust their strat. But just like other guilds who have watched videos, the feeling of accomplishment comes when you get 20 people to execute the strategy well enough to kill the boss.

  3. #63
    Mechagnome Akshak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    With in game threat % displayed and color rings around nameplates that go from yellow to orange to red when you are gaining and get aggro, why do people still use omen or any threat meter? Not being sarcastic, I really want to know. We stopped using it in Cata when they added the in game aggro stuff.
    Not everyone uses nameplates that glow or warn - hell I never used to or at least I don't think I did. Now with ElvUI/BenikUI there's an indicator at the bottom that changes colors so it's a colored nameplate of sorts, just not where you're talking about.

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  4. #64
    It is quite nice when you do that but hmm its a 10 y/o game... I dont rly think there are a lot of people out there that can suffer through many wipes to figure out the tactics when they can have the tactics by pressing I

  5. #65
    we use addons and we have some people, who like reading the tactics first, but we force them to shut up for a couple of tries.
    After that we read the dungeon journal and if after like an hour something still goes horribly wrong, one of the spoiler guys usually "ruins it"/"helps us".
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  6. #66
    Herald of the Titans Kuniku's Avatar
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    At the start of TBC I was raid leader for the guild I was in at the time, I was all up for figuring out the fights as we went along, I see that as part of the challenge of progressing through content etc. But ultimately too many people just want to turn up, be told what to do, get loot and go home. Wiping repeatedly as you figure out what needs to be done when and where etc puts many people off. So we had to do it with prior read ups for strats etc. Wasn't long before I moved to a top end progression guild and had far more fun figuring things out.

  7. #67
    Blademaster Kosmonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annarion View Post
    From my experience, most raiders are clueless and rely on the raid leader to tell them where to stand.

    Personally I don't look up strats, but read the dungeon journal in it's entirety (Not the coles notes version) and figure out what I need to be doing. DBM is there for the warning sounds to stop me from tunneling too much. Other than that, I don't really watch the bars or anything.
    7/14 Heroic SoO
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    Great plan, that. Your description of raiding experience clearly reflects on your raiding history. It is incredibly rare, if even at all, to find a player not using any addons, even for raid mechanics, in a top tier progression raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Paklajs View Post
    Hehe, came back during SoO and went in to Flex right away without knowing what to do - figured it out as a Tank as the figts went on.
    And I'm sure the rest of the raid, especially the other tank, appreciated it.

  8. #68
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosmonaut View Post
    Great plan, that. Your description of raiding experience clearly reflects on your raiding history. It is incredibly rare, if even at all, to find a player not using any addons, even for raid mechanics, in a top tier progression raid.
    People can have opinions on the topic without being a cutting edge raider. The topic is applicable to people raiding at all levels.

    (And FWIW, the armory is super fucked up on Siege kills. I don't have a single character that displays remotely correctly with dozens and dozens of missing kills on both heroic and mythic. So you might want to be cautious holding that against people anyway.)


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  9. #69
    I don't use DBM or any other boss mods. I used to until somewhere in MoP where the beeps just irritated me to the point were I deleted it, and I am raiding fine without it (took a while to adjust)
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGamer030 View Post
    I do not need to be constructive in this thread, nor provide an argument. There is nothing here to actually debate. Your reasoning is flawed and thusly you have no argument.
    ↑ Epitome of Internet Logic

  10. #70
    Blizzard made the game to support addons and allow players to customize how they play the game and view the information that is presented to them. So many people seem to treat it like it's cheating somehow - it really just isn't. Encounter design has without a doubt been a least moderately affected by this, their decision to allow this customization. It's more like delegating some of the UI work to the playerbase, rather then them needing to create a super fully featured one themselves to accommodate the small percentage of the population of the game that actually needs it. So they can focus on other development.

    I've though before about the idea of learning fights from complete scratch and not looking things up in advance or using addons, but it simply just wouldn't work for most groups. Especially with the fact that, at least for me, I hate failing the group - and I'm sure I'm not alone there. Groups have very limited time and encounters are complex. So you're damn right that I'm going to look up every detail I can to make that not happen. Typically, when I would fuck up during progression, I would immediately create a weakaura (or make the existing one more noticeable) to make sure it never happened again. Do I necessarily need it? Probably not, but I don't like taking any chance at wasting peoples time if I can help it. It could work with a group of like minded, patient people, but I'm not sure it'd be worth it.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    Except that you have significantly more chances to kill a boss than you do to pass an important test without studying.

    Some people like to put a puzzle together by picking out the pieces of the frame and putting them together, and some people like glancing back at the box every 5 seconds and putting their puzzle together.

    On the first try it's about the same. Your misunderstanding of the analogy stems from the fact that you're unable to conceptualize retaking a test due to the time gap. This is where the distinction lies, whereas you can retry immediately with a raid a test usually has a time gap. Despite that, a test is significantly easier past the first attempt.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Nopkplease View Post
    Outside of a few guilds in Beta, do any guilds out there try to raid without using addons and without reading spoilers and watching videos of all the content before they try to raid during a new tier?

    How does raiding can feel like any sense of accomplishment when you use a dozen addons that take away any sort of situational awareness that you would need to have or when you already know exactly what to expect and do for every encounter without learning it on your own developing your own strategies?

    Is raiding only about the end result and how fast you can get there and have nothing to do with the journey to get there?
    People's "GIMME NOA" mentality leaves little room for reading up on fights, preparing, and even less tolerance for wiping. Which you need to do to progress. Do every shortcut people can take, they will.

  13. #73
    Addons disseminate information. There is 0 reason to wipe 100+ times figuring out something made trivial by analyzing logs and creating timers. People still have to execute the encounter.

    Having an addon to warn you about the big bad boss ability that will one shot everyone and thus needs to be interrupted allows fights to be designed to be more and more complex and be better encounters.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    I still do not think it is necessary for bleeding edge either if you can pay attention to every thing that is going on. Besides the bleeding edge groups have been testing this shit out for months before any information was given to mod makers. They know what is going on, they know what to do. They are used to increase performance and efficiency only. The same reason we all use them. To make it easier on all of us.
    You are forgetting one thing about bleeding edge. They're always going in undergeared. And with the first tier significantly do. And "before any info it's given to mod makers.". There are no formal mod makers. The mod makers are the ones in the high end guilds testing out the content.

  15. #75
    Blademaster Kosmonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    the armory is super fucked up on Siege kills.)
    Achievements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    People can have opinions on the topic without being a cutting edge raider. The topic is applicable to people raiding at all levels.
    Just as you said, I can have an opinion as well. Someone saying a hardcore progression raider is just someone relying on a crutch of addons is no different than having an opinion about casual raiders. I don't recall ever saying they weren't allowed an opinion on the topic, so feel free to relax.

  16. #76
    Obviously the most hardcore guilds can down a boss without an add-on or a strategy guide telling them how to. My guild goes in with knowledge of the abilities and what you generally have to do to mitigate it, and of course bigwigs/dbm are required. But as for particular strats like where to stand, who takes what when, where we pop cooldowns etc, we come up with all that on the way.

  17. #77
    Its not needed. One wipe and you should understand how to deal with fire on the ground

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Havik View Post
    Raiding without researching the fights, or using a boss mod like bigwigs or DBM is like taking a college level trigonometry test without studying or bringing a calculator. I guess you could possibly do fine, but why handicap yourself intentionally by going in blind, foregoing useful tools or both? Seems rather quixotic.
    Apples, meet oranges.

    Frankly, knowing strats ahead of time completely ruins the point of a video game in the first place. Most players seem to defy this notion however, so the rest of us need to go along with it to remain involved.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aeuhe4yxzhds View Post
    Its not needed. One wipe and you should understand how to deal with fire on the ground
    Because that's all there is, ever.

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