Whats the best way to tell a trial they failed?

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

Being on trial myself, this thread made me feel uncomfortable :P

Generally, when rejecting a trial I would avoid direct criticism. You should say "the other warrior was performing better than you" rather that "your performance was bad". Or, in that sitution of "too many players", you can just say "unfortunately we don't have a spot for you in our main team".

Why?

Either they're going to take you and kick that other warrior off the team, or v-v.

(1) You did great. We kicked ScrubWarr out of the guild. You're The Boz now.
(2) ScrubWarr beat you. Don't bother us again.

There's not other options that make any sense really, unless you're running a stuffed pet sort of guild.

[Deleted]

That's not what he's saying. If said person is not fitting in, in this example, because they're whining about loot or their humor just doesn't mesh with the group, that is very much a valid reason to cut them. I'd imagine very few guilds doing mythic have any lasting power at all if they only care about downing bosses, even at the expensive of how the raiders treat each other.

Yup.
There are good players that are bad for progression because they for instance keep saying 'let's switch difficulty' after few wipes, or start making excuses for progress raids and attend only farm.

[Chaltione]

"<insert name>, you failed your trial. You can stay as a social or try your luck elsewhere. Whatever you decide, good luck!".

If the person has a decent sense of humor, keep the <insert name> in there, I would personally chuckle at getting that in a message.

[Deleted]

Being on trial myself, this thread made me feel uncomfortable :P

Generally, when rejecting a trial I would avoid direct criticism. You should say "the other warrior was performing better than you" rather that "your performance was bad". Or, in that sitution of "too many players", you can just say "unfortunately we don't have a spot for you in our main team".

Follow the guidelines I posted in post 37 and you should be fine if you aren't completely terrible. If you notice you are doing worse dps or perform less in general then someone of the same class and spec don't hesitate to politely ask them for advice.

Nothing gives you as much bonus rep with (good)officers then showing you really want to improve. I rather have a player who is decent and wants to get better then a good player who sticks to their own ways regardless of the situation.

[Mteq]

it usually helps to tell someone during their trial period as well if they are on the right track or not.

for example there is a guy that keeps dieing from fire. after 4 weeks his trial is over, and you tell him; sorry, you didn't make the cut, you keep dieing to fire" that can come as a bit of a shock.

if we have any trialists we tell them after every raid night if they are on the right track or not. we want them to succeed with us, we want them to stay or else we wouldnt have invited them in the first place. don't get me wrong though, we do this with our fixed raiders as well. if you stood out in the wrong way (died to often, took to much damage from fire, dps was extremely low or dps'd the wrong target) we tell you, in a polite way.

if you haven't learned to gtfo the fire or pay attention to what is being said on voice comms or whatever after 4 weeks, well then were sorry but it's social or gtfo tbh ;/ we want to progressin a steady pace, not be held back because 2/3 guys take a whole lot longer to learn something, or better yet, learn something at all.

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

If the person has a decent sense of humor, keep the <insert name> in there, I would personally chuckle at getting that in a message.

It's pretty much how emails from hiring managers read these days, if things didn't go well, if they sent an email at all.

If applying to a guild was like applying for a real job, of course, you'd simply never hear from anyone again if you failed. Telling someone he didn't get the job is just a waste of time and then you might have to listen to him whine about it or even beg or cry.

[bmjclark]

Let me quote you: "dumb - scrub - "

Nice attitude of showing off a mentality.

I said when he would Raid in Flex he should bring anyone along that is willing and trying his/her best.

After a certain time people will realise the Mythic part of the game is not really for them.

It is like Cruyff said 40 years ago: once you go back to the dress room everyone knows who were the better players of the soccer team, yourself included.

It is much better to let players confront themselves with their mistakes or short comings.

Much simpler and you'll still be friends you can rely on in other parts of Guild play.

If anything ... more players leave WoW for being treated as "scrub" than any other element in this game apart from being burnt out.

Still, it's poor advice. If i was getting denied from a mythic guild i'd want to know straight up so i could weight my options and maybe try applying to a different guild. Not get taken on pitty flex runs.

[Deleted]

Why?

Either they're going to take you and kick that other warrior off the team, or v-v.

(1) You did great. We kicked ScrubWarr out of the guild. You're The Boz now.
(2) ScrubWarr beat you. Don't bother us again.

There's not other options that make any sense really, unless you're running a stuffed pet sort of guild.

You wouldn't be a good officer in the sense of communication if you give every player the same copy and paste message. Each person is different, some like constructive feedback, others take it as an insult. With trials you usually raid with them for 2-4 weeks, if you haven't noticed what approach to take by then then you failed as an officer AND guild in making new players feel at home.

- - - Updated - - -

it usually helps to tell someone during their trial period as well if they are on the right track or not.

for example there is a guy that keeps dieing from fire. after 4 weeks his trial is over, and you tell him; sorry, you didn't make the cut, you keep dieing to fire" that can come as a bit of a shock.

if we have any trialists we tell them after every raid night if they are on the right track or not. we want them to succeed with us, we want them to stay or else we wouldnt have invited them in the first place. don't get me wrong though, we do this with our fixed raiders as well. if you stood out in the wrong way (died to often, took to much damage from fire, dps was extremely low or dps'd the wrong target) we tell you, in a polite way.

if you haven't learned to gtfo the fire or pay attention to what is being said on voice comms or whatever after 4 weeks, well then were sorry but it's social or gtfo tbh ;/ we want to progressin a steady pace, not be held back because 2/3 guys take a whole lot longer to learn something, or better yet, learn something at all.

Very important as well, constructive feedback is needed when they have time to improve...not when your booting them out and they can't do anything to improve anymore.

[Rafoel]

There is a big difference between having positive and negative effect on morale. Bitching and complaining and emoraging is clearly negative. I did serve in the army and there were times for questions and arguments - and times for just doing what has been told.
Hell, even on trial I was making fun of my GM and RL, playing a grammar nazi and killing them with Leap of Faith - when there was a time for it.

- - - Updated - - -



Terrible. You do not wish to improve? Why would you not wish to improve?

I was glad when my application was rejected by 'You are not experienced enough, GTFO for the time being.' because then I knew what to work on.

The common misconception is that people DON'T KNOW they are performing bad/worse - especially if they have direct comparison to other people playing the same spec. Of course, they will avoid admitting they are worse at all cost as openly admitting something like that while on trial is equal to saying "i don't suit in this guild, I'm too bad".

Btw, the answer "you are not experienced" is far from "direct criticism" as its not criticism but simply stating a fact. You obviously knew you were not very experienced, so they sent you a signal "come back when you aquire mroe experience" which is motivating, not depressing. So, point to me?

On the other side, we have answer I once got from a guild that said no more or less but "your ui is terrible, rejected". Funny thing is I havent changed my ui much in the last few years and in no other guild I applied or was in (so, around 10) anybody ever MENTIONED my ui. I still don't know what that guy wanted from my ui, basically ignoring my whole long detailed application was so rude I just said farewell and never spoke to him. Thats a BAD way.

[Graeham]

Be polite, open and honest. Explain why they failed and do so in a way that isn't overly snide or aggressive.

[Danner]

* Be honest. Don't make up excuses, everyone with a minimum of brains will see through it, and you are just insulting their intellect. It reflects on you and your guild poorly. If you hired three mages and will only use one, explain that. You probably should have told them that upfront though.

* Give a reason, and be concrete. It's far easier to be told "you do too little DPS", than "we don't think you're good enough".
The first may earn you an argument, but it is something anyone can verify. The latter just earns you ire, and when said candidate does find a guild, he will spend time smearing yours to vent that ire. Ultimately, your guild will get a bad name.

* Be polite. It's generally never wrong to be courteous, especially when delivering harsh news. Just because you are failing someone, you don't need to be rude about it. Save the abuse for the drill sergeant raidleader.

* Give early warnings during the trial (and after, if needed)
If you feel someone hasn't read up on tactics, fail to have their weapon enchanted or similar - let them know. It will do nobody any good if you only complain about it in the officer chat. A whisper, an opportunity to fix it - let them know they fscked up something that they shouldn't, and that this is not what you are expecting.

* Don't delay an inevitable outcome. If someone fails, let them know right away. Sooner is better than later. Taking advantage of a prospecting candidate with no chance of passing just ain't cool, and will make said player feel exploited. You are wasting his and your own time.

* Everyone is different. Managing people is hard.
Some players are happy to get pointers on what to improve. Some of these will happily improve that and apply again. if you leave with some parting advice, these players will leave on a high note. Others will take any pointers as a professional insult, and spend rest of their wow careers smearing you and your guild if you do. Understanding what makes people perform, tick and explode... that's the hard part. If you ever learn that skill, you are set for life as a manager in any profession.

[Overlord Fordragon]

That's not what he's saying. If said person is not fitting in, in this example, because they're whining about loot or their humor just doesn't mesh with the group, that is very much a valid reason to cut them. I'd imagine very few guilds doing mythic have any lasting power at all if they only care about downing bosses, even at the expensive of how the raiders treat each other.

But surely there would be some warning to try and attempt to cease unwanted behavior? When I had time to raid, a trial was test of ability at the game and we accepted them on that factor.

Only once we had told them we thought their abilities suited the guild did we say for example "You fit within the raid team, if you cut back on the over-talking others in Ventrillo"
I think we let one, maybe two "emoragers" through the cracks in perhaps 4 years.

Just seems the original post was going to extremes. In raiding, everyone deserves a second chance.

[Deleted]

Constructive criticism during the trial period when they are able to improve (Although my opinion is that if you have to hold hand, then the trial is not ready).
Destructive criticism when they are being booted out where they failed to make use of the constructive critisism given earlier.

[tratra]

Well as a leader you have to be not too nice and not too bad. You need to be feared but loved at the same time.

You need to be respected.

It seems to me you don't have that. But ye around this post you'll find many good ones.

What I would do in your position is send an one liner: Sorry but you are not a good fit for our team. <Insert short why> E.g Your dps has been quite low and we did try to give you the chance to improve but we feel that there is no improvement being made. Good luck in the future.

That simple one liner gives you the chance to:

A) State to them that they are leaving.

B) Give them a reason.

C) Wish them for the future.

Don't get into any debates and if they reply to that just don't reply back or be blunt be saying I explained my self, I am sorry, good luck.

Don't get yourself caught up by people saying oh I will try and I will and I will, or why , or whatever...

Also like in real life... there are people that like you and people that don't like you.

[Deleted]

The common misconception is that people DON'T KNOW they are performing bad/worse - especially if they have direct comparison to other people playing the same spec. Of course, they will avoid admitting they are worse at all cost as openly admitting something like that while on trial is equal to saying "i don't suit in this guild, I'm too bad".

Btw, the answer "you are not experienced" is far from "direct criticism" as its not criticism but simply stating a fact. You obviously knew you were not very experienced, so they sent you a signal "come back when you aquire mroe experience" which is motivating, not depressing. So, point to me?

On the other side, we have answer I once got from a guild that said no more or less but "your ui is terrible, rejected". Funny thing is I havent changed my ui much in the last few years and in no other guild I applied or was in (so, around 10) anybody ever MENTIONED my ui. I still don't know what that guy wanted from my ui, basically ignoring my whole long detailed application was so rude I just said farewell and never spoke to him. Thats a BAD way.

You didn't miss out, judge a player on how they perform. Not on what tools they use to do so.

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

You wouldn't be a good officer in the sense of communication if you give every player the same copy and paste message. Each person is different, some like constructive feedback, others take it as an insult. With trials you usually raid with them for 2-4 weeks, if you haven't noticed what approach to take by then then you failed as an officer AND guild in making new players feel at home.

When any player feels at home he slacks off. Anyone who doesn't feel his slot is in jeopardy every single week won't try his hardest. Fear, pressure, and uncertainty are the best motivators, not fake friendship.

[xindralol]

kick them out and put them on ignore, tell everyone in your guild to do the same

[Deleted]

you tell them their performance was not good enough

[Eurhetemec]

If applying to a guild was like applying for a real job, of course, you'd simply never hear from anyone again if you failed. Telling someone he didn't get the job is just a waste of time and then you might have to listen to him whine about it or even beg or cry.

Actually, genuinely professional firms who are serious about quality always tell candidates that they weren't accepted (in writing, never by phone). They don't go into detail, of course. Since the economic downturn, though, there has been a huge rise in unprofessional, lazy and similar behaviour from recruiters who feel it's a buyer's market, which is what leads to the "no response" behaviour, as they feel they can get away with slacking/being jerks. If the job market continues to improve, they're going to find it's increasingly a problem, though, because when they try to hire the guy they ignored a few years later, he will not have forgotten that your firm lacks professionalism/ethics. The rise of startups run by people who wouldn't know professionalism is it beat them to death isn't helping matters! Nor is the rise of massive "fake job" CV-trawling by recruiters.

On topic, the "not a good fit" approach is the best default if you just want them to leave and not have hard feelings (ragers always gonna rage, ofc). "Constructive criticism" etc. unless amazingly on-point (and trust me, few people are good at it) and to an open-minded recipient, is begging for a lengthy discussion/argument, and potential butthurt on both sides. If you want that and have time for it, great, but it's not the best plan. If they failed HARD, i.e. by being terrible/a dick, then I would tell them the precise reason, but I wouldn't have some lengthy bullet-point list of failings.

[Celista]

When any player feels at home he slacks off. Anyone who doesn't feel his slot is in jeopardy every single week won't try his hardest. Fear, pressure, and uncertainty are the best motivators, not fake friendship.

Well your guild sounds like fun. Is your middle name Stalin?