Holy DPS

[Jackielope]

Will glyph of LoH make this sustainable for more than 5m?

Maybe, but my gut instinct is it's a DPS loss to have it instead of Glyph of Merciful Wrath and some spirit.

And it's Glyph of Divinity, not Glyph of Lay On Hands.

Testing it right now though.

[Jackielope]

Yup. Glyph of Divinity is a DPS loss to use instead of Merciful Wrath except on very long (10+ minute) fights.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as the Chew Toy trinket goes, it does result in a DPS gain for longer fights such as 450 seconds +-20%. On shorter fights (300+- 20%) it's a DPS loss compared to using the Quiescent Runestone.

- - - Updated - - -

For anyone curious about best results now, the following profile gives about 31,700 DPS if it's being simmed at 300 seconds +- 20% which is what the current SimC front page is showing. It's in 695+ gear, including the pre-legendary 710 healer ring. The Int DPS ring seems to be a DPS loss due to having Mastery on it. The Lay On Hands line is in there (and commented out with the #) if anyone wantd to test Glyph of Divinity on their own.

paladin="Paladin_Holy_T17M_Dmg"
level=100
race=blood_elf
role=spell
position=back
talents=1132232
glyphs=holy_shock/harsh_words/merciful_wrath
spec=holy

# This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
# It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
# while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
# Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
# SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=greater_draenic_intellect_flask
actions.precombat+=/food,type=calamari_crepes
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=(!aura.str_agi_int.up)&(aura.mastery.up)
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
actions.precombat+=/seal_of_insight
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=draenic_intellect

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=potion,name=draenic_intellect,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
#actions+=/lay_on_hands,if=mana.pct<=89
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/holy_avenger,if=holy_power<=2
actions+=/avenging_wrath
actions+=/execution_sentence
actions+=/harsh_word,if=buff.divine_purpose.react
actions+=/harsh_word,if=holy_power>=3
actions+=/holy_shock,damage=1
actions+=/denounce


head=lavadipped_greathelm,id=113894,bonus_id=567
neck=choker_of_bloody_flame,id=120077,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5320
shoulders=pauldrons_of_guiding_light,id=115565,bonus_id=567
back=runescribed_gronncloak,id=120078,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5313
chest=chestplate_of_arcane_volatility,id=113831,bonus_id=567
wrists=bracers_of_visceral_force,id=119331,bonus_id=567
hands=gauntlets_of_guiding_light,id=115567,bonus_id=567
waist=ironcrushers_collar,id=113950,bonus_id=567
legs=legplates_of_guiding_light,id=115569,bonus_id=567
feet=iron_bellow_sabatons,id=113961,bonus_id=567
finger1=spellbound_runic_band_of_infinite_preservation,id=118309,enchant_id=5327
finger2=epicenter_loop,id=113947,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5327
trinket1=goren_soul_repository,id=119194,bonus_id=567
trinket2=blackiron_micro_crucible,id=113984,bonus_id=567
main_hand=koloch_na_the_blood_feast,id=113973,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5334
off_hand=enginestokers_lantern,id=113960,bonus_id=567

# Gear Summary
# gear_stamina=4499
# gear_intellect=3781
# gear_spirit=145
# gear_spell_power=1750
# gear_crit_rating=851
# gear_haste_rating=1217
# gear_armor=2239
# gear_multistrike_rating=1610
# gear_versatility_rating=365

[Greelix]

So Jackielope as of right now Holy dps is up to 31k possible. What would be the comparable dps of an actual dps spec be at the same ilevel?

[Jackielope]

So Jackielope as of right now Holy dps is up to 31k possible. What would be the comparable dps of an actual dps spec be at the same ilevel?

Nope. Gear being equal it's still 4-5k lower than Arms which is the lowest damage DPS spec according to current SimC ilvl 695 rankings. I'm not counting Shadow since its T100 talents have an insane variance on DPS.

Holy is 88% of Arms' 36k DPS, so 12% lower than the lowest. If the Arcane 45k sim is accurate then Holy is 70% of that, or 30% worse than the highest. And do keep in mind this is only single target damage. Holy gets absolutely castrated on AoE because we simply don't have anything other than Holy Prism or Light's Hammer.

I expect Prot going full DPS would do better than we will and still be useful for varied encounters.

- - - Updated - - -

Owing to time, money, and computer constraints I can't actually play the game to verify any of the SimC results. If someone wants to test their Holydin to see if various values line up then could you please take some logs while you're at it? I imagine plenty of people would be interested, plus starting now on rigorously looking at Holy DPS might enable Blizzard to give us a proper hybrid talent or whatever in the next expansion.

I'll put together pre raid ilvl 630 and raid ilvl 665 profiles in the next day or so. Or if anyone wants to make their own the stat weights are usually crit>=multi>haste>=vers if mana doesn't run out. If mana does run out then haste is lower than vers.

[Dubalicious]

plus starting now on rigorously looking at Holy DPS might enable Blizzard to give us a proper hybrid talent or whatever in the next expansion.

Although I dont think it would ever happen, all it would take is a talent that changes our mastery to some sort of damage increase and we could compete on single target damage.

I'll probably do some holy dps @ some point to retain my crown (lol), but it's a little tough right now - I might jump into an LFR as dps or we almost always overheal our heroic clears so maybe I can convince my guild to carry me a little more than they already do one week. I think I spiked to ~25k dps on H-Butcher last night just running Holy Shock glyph.

Also, there was some pretty hawt shockadin action in Midwinter's World First kill of Mythic Tectus. I have no idea how much damage they were doing, but it looked like they were dps'ing for the first couple minutes before the huge damage at the end. (I only know this based on the H-pally's fairly low HPS and you can see the "Denounce" debuff on the boss in one of the PoVs)

[Jackielope]

Although I dont think it would ever happen, all it would take is a talent that changes our mastery to some sort of damage increase and we could compete on single target damage.

Mastery alone wouldn't do it for us unless it was a big new mechanic, and even then it wouldn't bring us up to the middle I don't think. I suspect it's more a matter of overall scaling and/or giving us more DPS abilities. For example, with Arcane mages Int is at 7.32 and secondary stats are between 5.1 for Mastery at top and 3.69 for Vers at worst. For a Destro warlock Int is at 6.05 while secondary stats vary between 3.63 for Crit and 3.04 for Vers.

I suppose killing two birds with one stone and having a talent that allowed Seal of Command to boost our damage based on Mastery would work for a start. Turn it into a tweaked version of Ret's Hand of Light and there we go.

We do have decent burst through stacking cooldowns though. Combining HA, AW, and Bloodlust gets us 80k peak burst according to the sims, for ilvl 695 full DPS gear and glyphs anyway.

[Greelix]

I found out the other day that harsh words and denounce do not reset your weapon swing timer, even letting you "wack" in the middle of the cast. Seems pretty cool to me even though it wouldn't add much.

Oh, and I took a look at your sims. Why don't you use crusader strike? Seems like it would be worth using in a Sim as it would let you use harsh words a lot more which deals a lot of damage. Using just my tool tips, CS would need to do at least 17% of the damage denounce does to be just above useless in a vacuum.

[Dubalicious]

Oh, and I took a look at your sims. Why don't you use crusader strike?

Not 100% sure, but most likely because of it's mana cost and the assumption that this is a ranged dps spec.

[Jackielope]

I found out the other day that harsh words and denounce do not reset your weapon swing timer, even letting you "wack" in the middle of the cast. Seems pretty cool to me even though it wouldn't add much.

Oh, and I took a look at your sims. Why don't you use crusader strike? Seems like it would be worth using in a Sim as it would let you use harsh words a lot more which deals a lot of damage. Using just my tool tips, CS would need to do at least 17% of the damage denounce does to be just above useless in a vacuum.

Dub has it right.

I'm keeping it to ranged damage at the moment since Holy is always flagged as being ranged even if the character itself is in melee.

CS costs far too much mana to use and thus results in a DPS loss. Holy is already mana limited on anything 5 minutes or over, so using CS would take that down significantly. It's better to just cast free Denounce on that GCD.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Are you using intellect potions or mana pots?

[Jackielope]

Are you using intellect potions or mana pots?

Int potions paired with AW results in more DPS than using mana pots unless it's a very long fight.

[Greelix]

Not 100% sure, but most likely because of it's mana cost and the assumption that this is a ranged dps spec.

Hmmm, is mana really that much of an issue at 100? I mean we would only use holy shock and crusader strike, and I know I definitely use more mana healing. If crusaDer strike provides a dps increase and weapond swings hit lit normal, I can only assume that it would help.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

640 ilvl messing about with ~1k crit and multistrike and I couldn't get over 8k dps, dummy fought for over 10min. At what ilvl is this supposed to be "viable" for heroic and or "fun raids"? I'm doing way-way more as prot on dummy, not convinced that this is actually working- Prot dps on the other hand is working like a charm!

[Deleted]

How is 30k dps suppose to happen?

actions+=/holy_avenger,if=holy_power<=2
actions+=/avenging_wrath
actions+=/execution_sentence
actions+=/harsh_word,if=buff.divine_purpose.react
actions+=/harsh_word,if=holy_power>=3
actions+=/holy_shock,damage=1
actions+=/denounce

There is no divine purpose if speced Holy Avenger. Execution Sentence+ Harsh Word+ Holy Shock+ Denounce don't do that much dmg, unless you suddenly 3x spellpower and crit from ilvl 675 to 695. Did they math harsh words properly? For me ingame WoG heals for ~26-27k but only does 17k dmg, I hope they didn't calculate it as 27k dmg or smth.

[Jackielope]

Hmmm, is mana really that much of an issue at 100? I mean we would only use holy shock and crusader strike, and I know I definitely use more mana healing. If crusader strike provides a dps increase and weapon swings hit like normal, I can only assume that it would help.

If using HS and ES on cooldown with no other mana cost abilities and no spirit then we run OOM at about 6 1/2 minutes, at least according to SimC. As mentioned earlier in the thread adding spirit can increase DPS for longer fights.

640 ilvl messing about with ~1k crit and multistrike and I couldn't get over 8k dps, dummy fought for over 10min. At what ilvl is this supposed to be "viable" for heroic and or "fun raids"? I'm doing way-way more as prot on dummy, not convinced that this is actually working- Prot dps on the other hand is working like a charm!

Define "viable." I have only claimed it's simming close to what tanks are simming at in full survival mode, so if you're thinking it does damage like a DPS or even a damage-oriented tanking setup then there is some miscommunication here and you're expecting too much from it. Also, you have been on these forums long enough to know better than to compare dummy DPS to full raid DPS which is what usually gets modeled in SimC.

If you really want to continue with this I'd suggest using SimC to import your character and then turn off all the raid buffs and such for simulating. The priority is pretty straightforward with cooldowns being most important, then HaW at 3 HoPo, then HS at less than 3 HoPo, and finally Denounce as filler when the other stuff can't be done. It's just HS then 3x Denounce until you have 3 HoPo, then you HaW and repeat, except while under Avenging Wrath with Sanctified Wrath which lowers HS's CD. Then the sim does 2x Denounce between each HS. Doing 1x then waiting for HS is a DPS loss.

Based solely on SP scaling Hammer of Wrath would come in just above Denounce in the priority, but it's not included in the sims due to the execution mechanics. It's trivially added if anyone really wants to do that.

How is 30k dps suppose to happen?



There is no divine purpose if speced Holy Avenger. Execution Sentence+ Harsh Word+ Holy Shock+ Denounce don't do that much dmg, unless you suddenly 3x spellpower and crit from ilvl 675 to 695. Did they math harsh words properly? For me ingame WoG heals for ~26-27k but only does 17k dmg, I hope they didn't calculate it as 27k dmg or smth.

With top of the tier gear at 695. I'm seeing Holy sim about 23k with 665 gear, so 675 gear might result in about 26k perhaps. For what it's worth, 630 gear is simming at 17k.

Holy Avenger and Divine Purpose lines are included for testing those talents, just like how Prot and Ret have similar lines in their profiles to compare between talents. The talent that performs the best so far is Sanctified Wrath, and that is indeed what is being used in the profiles I've posted.

Feel free to make some logs of HaW damage if you'd like to see whether SimC is properly calculating damage. The most thorough but still reasonable way to do it is talent Holy Avenger, take off all your character's gear (or at least take off any int, SP, or versatility buff proc items), make note of any character buffs and of the stats, then go up to a target dummy and use HaW every time you generate HoPo with HS or CS. Holy Avenger will ensure each generator makes 3 HoPo, but there is still value in 1 HoPo HaW casts since, as best we know, WoG and HaW just multiply a base SP coefficient by the number of HoPo spent on the spell so simply multiplying the damage of a 1 HoPo Haw by 3 should result in the same damage as a 3 HoPo HaW.


And for the record since someone is bound to ask, no I personally cannot test in game.

[Greelix]

Hey Jackielope, as I pointed out earlier Harsh Words and denounce don't reset the swing timer. If the swing falls while casting denounce it will cancel the swing; however if it falls while casting Harsh Words it will still swing and hit the target. I don't know if you care about being in melee but it might give a dps increase.

[Jackielope]

Hey Jackielope, as I pointed out earlier Harsh Words and denounce don't reset the swing timer. If the swing falls while casting denounce it will cancel the swing; however if it falls while casting Harsh Words it will still swing and hit the target. I don't know if you care about being in melee but it might give a dps increase.

I already saw that and replied with a quote. I'm keeping it to ranged only but if you want to sim using Seal of Command and melee you're more than welcome to. Given how melee hits don't scale at all with int or spellpower and SoC doesn't have any spellpower components I am quite sure the damage increase will be negligible.

[Deleted]

hi,

finally i found something like this. i'm really like to try a new thing. first i try dps as prot pally with ilvl 650 i tested in lfr highmaul avg i got 17k-19k dps.

now i'm looking for holy dps. i tried it on dummy but only got 8k-9k dps(with holy healing gear-more spirit ilvl 664). even with caster gear i dont think it will go more than 20k dps.

and as we know holy healing use crit as top priority. since holy dps dont really need Infusion of Light proc, how the stat priority goes? more haste multistrike?

i used glyph of holy shock, harsh words, merciful wrath. but still i never get more than 10k dps.

i really excited if holy dps is a legit. did someone already test it on highmaul encounter?

sry if my english are bad.

[Greelix]

hi,

finally i found something like this. i'm really like to try a new thing. first i try dps as prot pally with ilvl 650 i tested in lfr highmaul avg i got 17k-19k dps.

now i'm looking for holy dps. i tried it on dummy but only got 8k-9k dps(with holy healing gear-more spirit ilvl 664). even with caster gear i dont think it will go more than 20k dps.

and as we know holy healing use crit as top priority. since holy dps dont really need Infusion of Light proc, how the stat priority goes? more haste multistrike?

i used glyph of holy shock, harsh words, merciful wrath. but still i never get more than 10k dps.

i really excited if holy dps is a legit. did someone already test it on highmaul encounter?

sry if my english are bad.

Holy shock tends to be the #1 damage dealer for me so more crit to a cap of 30-40%>everything else>mastery. If your group does not mind you going holy and consistantly pulling 30% or more less than everyone else then go for it. it is for fun and dreams, nothing else. That said, a healer pulling amazing dps single target for 30 sec. every so often might be useful on some fights pve or pvp. In random bgs it is fun because pulling out a harsh words to holy shock/HoW kill gets you 50% increase and 100% crit on your next flash of light.

[Jackielope]

The first thing to note with Holy DPS is mastery is worse than useless. Get any other stat you can and you'll be doing better.

Overall the top stats are crit and multistrike (which stick to each other very well), with haste hopping around all over the place and vers being supremely boring like Blizz wanted it to be. DPS doesn't benefit from Infusion of Light, but Holy Shock still has double crit chance which makes it very worthwhile though I think there is a soft cap to deal with during AW. Haste would be better if mana wasn't an issue near the end of the sims.

And yes, Holy Shock is a huge part of the damage. The sims I've run have it as about 49% of total damage. Denounce is second at around 27%, Harsh Word is third at about 16% and finally Execution Sentence is about 8%. ES is actually a huge amount of DPS per cast time so using it properly with AW is a big deal.