Anyone else surprised shadow didn't get a buff in this most recent tuning pass?

[Deleted]

Shadow is fine. Mind Sear could use a tuning but its by no means urgent. Last tier talent changes coming in 6.1 anyways

[Primernova]

Blizz is trying to attract healers back.

[Ponkster]

Kind of a moot point, CoP isn't the only talent that changes our playstyle. SoD vs insanity for example. Shadow has been this way since MoP.

No, it doesn't.

Sustained AoE yes. Burst AoE is insane with Halo.

Wrong. Most mobile caster for sure. I myself is in one of the groups for butcher moving in and out between stacks and still push great dps, because that movement barely affects a Shadow Priest.

For real? Shadow is great at single target now and we scale really good for it as well. DoT weaving also isn't an unintended gimmick. Earlier on beta we could take CoP and play MoP Shadow. Now that was unintended and also changed.


Now I never argued our sustained AoE with Mind Sear was low. All I did say was it's probably done on purpose and we shouldn't expect a buff. That's our "bad niche". Other classes has their own "bad niches" and it's probably how they're balancing now.

You haven't played a hunter or warrior have you? You don't know what burst AoE is. I haven't played ret or WW myself but they can cleave and burst very strongly too.


Halo would need to be on a 15-20 second cd to even compete and we would still fall wayy far behind.

Making cascade bounce between targets a certain number of times would be awesome and make the button feel really solid pressing. No idea why we haven't had this for shadow.

P.S your delusional if you don't think our dps is affected too much by movement, with no dots we only have mind blast and halo to use. PW shield would mean at that moment we are intentially trying to get hit which is silly design. Give me a blink or port or leap anyday. Infact gonna get reverse leap of faith, yolo

[zenkai]

You haven't played a hunter or warrior have you? You don't know what burst AoE is. I haven't played ret or WW myself but they can cleave and burst very strongly too.


Halo would need to be on a 15-20 second cd to even compete and we would still fall wayy far behind.

Making cascade bounce between targets a certain number of times would be awesome and make the button feel really solid pressing. No idea why we haven't had this for shadow.

P.S your delusional if you don't think our dps is affected too much by movement, with no dots we only have mind blast and halo to use. PW shield would mean at that moment we are intentially trying to get hit which is silly design. Give me a blink or port or leap anyday. Infact gonna get reverse leap of faith, yolo

^--This And about Burst execute dmg /shudders wait until your raid gets more geared and execute phases are much shorter since a lot of other DPS classes and execute too, then watch your dps go down.

[snaxattax]

Aoe & mobility sucks and our execute dps is a bit above average, but it's not anything earth shattering. Yay we have ONE healing cooldown. ..

our mobility with CoP is pretty good compared to other ranged other than hunters who are still broken retardmode. our execute is a bit above average?? our sustained execute dps is equal to most classes dps with their cooldowns popped. the only reason we don't really get to see it shine is that execute doesn't last long when everything goes right. when it's just 2-3 dps alive at the end and you're struggling to kill a boss is where shadow shines - which is what first kills often end up looking like.

and the extent to which VE is a gamechanger - last night doing tectus pulls I was getting some 1.8-2mil VE's due to being able to pop it during a high raid damage phase against a target in execute range. that's more than a healing tide totem!

[Deleted]

I don't mind sucking at AOE, or our DOTs not being that potent, the nerf to utility, or even our poor mobility. But we should be comfortably the top single-target caster using COP under this current design. I don't see what value we bring to a raid comp right now.

Like it's not even that shadow is bad right now. This is 10x better than MOP. It just feels pointless to play. Everything we do, another caster does better.

Where would you place Arcane mages then? their speciality is also single target damage.
Where would you place subtlety rogues?

both of these specs suck at AoE too...

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I just find it hilarious when concerns about CoP's dominance, Void Entropy's damage, Mind Sear being balls, and Void Entropy's design were mentioned during the beta and Celestalon told us they were fine, only for the recent dev interview to admit that they screwed up with a lot of talents and Clarity was one of them.

It's hard to take the developers seriously when they're like "yeah everything is fine" before launch and then admit "oh yeah we fucked up but can't fix it for months."

At least your talents got any thought put into int to start with.
Take a look at the rogue talent tree... they need a complete tree overhaul. but they were deemed as "not impactful, but also not a problem in the negative sense, so they left the tree untouched".
(my question here is: is that not the purpose of the talent tree? to be impactful, gameplaychanging and engaging?)

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That could be, except that no caster sucks at patchwerk, whoever lacks in execute makes up for it with front burst, and other classes have the ability to adequately (if not exceptionally) handle single, cleave and AoE to some extent. With the current DoT tuning multidotting is barely an increase from ST when DoTs get to roll for their full duration, and that's just wrong. Halo is awesome for killing critters and stuff that will die within seconds, but you'll need a properly tuned Mind Sear for anything else, e.g. Challenge Modes.

It makes me really happy that we're so much better than we were in MoP, but it sucks that we have to suck at something.

the biggest problem atm in balance is that while every class is good to excellent in something, a few classes/specs have it all (referring to monks and paladins)
It is ok if you excel in something, but suck in something else, as long as you get fights where your advantage shines.
It is not okay to be the best in everything.

[Dierdre]

It is ok if you excel in something, but suck in something else, as long as you get fights where your advantage shines.
It is not okay to be the best in everything.

Well it's not like we're the best at anything for that matter. We're slightly better at single target than most (not all) dps specs, and that's it.

For instance, take DKs: their AoE: isn't slightly better, it's significantly and undeniably superior, and they're more than ok at single target. Feral is good at single too, and it's way better than shadow at multidotting (which irks me to no end). Warlocks are just slightly below shadow at single target, and their AoE is also very competitive. Hunters? same case, plus insane mobility. Retardins? They're great at everything right now. Shaman? Monk? Just tell me when to stop.

That whole "you can't shine at everything" is just a lame excuse for poor tuning.

[Granyala]

In most addons, they insta nerfed shadow when it was performing good.

This time around, they just buffed all the other classes. :<

Still waiting for a fix to the lv 100 talents so I can spec out of CoP now and then.

[Sphinxz]

It just feels so weak that multidotting barely is a dps increase when you have two targets. I feel so fucking weak because I get too excited when I see another target and every other class gains more from it in turns of procs or cleave dps. I'm still doing very competitive dmg but it just feels wroooong

[zenkai]

In most addons, they insta nerfed shadow when it was performing good.

This time around, they just buffed all the other classes. :<

Still waiting for a fix to the lv 100 talents so I can spec out of CoP now and then.

QFT lol, remember when we could briefly cast SWD and our DPS would shoot up as long as healers could keep us alive? Ah what a fun week that was

[ThrashMetalFtw]

QFT lol, remember when we could briefly cast SWD and our DPS would shoot up as long as healers could keep us alive? Ah what a fun week that was

When was this? Guessing it was during a Beta/prepatch or during WotLK, as it was certainly never the case in TBC, Cata or MoP.

[pokeadott]

Quick update on my end - currently 2/7 mythic with Brackenspore sub 30% and in the wheelhouse for Sunday. We have some really good DPS players and the picture that's coming into focus is pretty stark imo.

- On Kargath we are fine - I was able to manage a competitive and solid top 4. Go go single target.

- On twins, I drop down to 11th consistently - right next to our other spriest. There is literally nothing I can do to get mileage out of cleaving. Seemingly every other dps spec has better cleave than us atm. We get what amounts to 2 extra mindspikes every 16 seconds(ish) by maintaining our 2 DoTs on a 2nd target fulltime. I got to come in for the fight during progression solely because I can move out of fire.

- On Brackenspore we haven't gotten a kill yet, but I'm sitting around 8th-11th (more variance on this fight). Not getting boss into execute yet, considering the multitude of adds up we can maintain decent ToF uptime so we won't get as big an execute spike as normal. The big add is up forever and basically another cleave sponge. Sporeshooters are good orb/ToF fodder, but they die too fast to get more than a couple SWD's out per spawn (every 45ish sec?). They also boost cleave dmg higher as the melee usually ends up killing ones close to mushrooms while cleaving the universe.

- Tectus: Haven't pulled yet, but it seems like mass AoEing 8 little adds at once is the plan based on some other guilds and looking at the log of the top guild on our server, their spriest was dead last by a massive margin (we basically are forced to mindsear spam at a point).

...

From what I have seen so far, on any fight with long living, cleavable adds or any kind of AoE, we are behind by a substantial margin. Pure ST we're in a good spot, but we're just a small % ahead of some (not all) specs. Honestly worried about keeping a raid slot moving forward. I see no reason to bring an spriest over other dpsers atm.

[Bullettime]

Where would you place Arcane mages then? their speciality is also single target damage.
Where would you place subtlety rogues?

both of these specs suck at AoE too...

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At least your talents got any thought put into int to start with.
Take a look at the rogue talent tree... they need a complete tree overhaul. but they were deemed as "not impactful, but also not a problem in the negative sense, so they left the tree untouched".
(my question here is: is that not the purpose of the talent tree? to be impactful, gameplaychanging and engaging?)

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the biggest problem atm in balance is that while every class is good to excellent in something, a few classes/specs have it all (referring to monks and paladins)
It is ok if you excel in something, but suck in something else, as long as you get fights where your advantage shines.
It is not okay to be the best in everything.

The problem is that the talents effectively don't work and are traps. Rogue talents are crap, I was one of the first to have discussion about how bad they were during the beta forums, but they're at least functional and not total traps. Void Entropy doesn't even work mechanically because of how niche it is. It's basically a "use this for two long targets, but not three, and nothing that will live shorter than a minute, but you also have a 20 second minimum ramp up per cast!" while Auspicious Spirits needs like 30% crit to be fine on single target and supports a multidot playstyle that falls apart because our dots do near zero damage.

There's also the issue that, while Shadow is above average on single target, there are plenty of others who can do comparable DPS to us while having other strengths. Mages can compete directly with us on single target while having better AoE and cleaving power. Obviously Monks and Paladins. Warriors can burst harder, have equal or more single target than us, can cleave, and have awesome executes. Even Elemental Shaman, despite being only a bit lower on single target, has massively higher AoE power.

Shadow was pretty much designed around Clarity being our single target talent with Void Entropy and Auspicious Spirits augmenting our cleaving power for encounters we need it. The issue is that our non Clarity affected ability tuning is so poor that those talents aren't good unless they do obscene numbers or have bonus modifiers. We have to give up everything for Clarity to be even remotely fine, making us crap in every other aspect. Entropy needs a rework, Spirits needs some sort of adjustment, and our dots need to do more damage inherently before the other options will even be considered.

[Relapses]

Shadow was pretty much designed around Clarity being our single target talent with Void Entropy and Auspicious Spirits augmenting our cleaving power for encounters we need it. The issue is that our non Clarity affected ability tuning is so poor that those talents aren't good unless they do obscene numbers or have bonus modifiers. We have to give up everything for Clarity to be even remotely fine, making us crap in every other aspect. Entropy needs a rework, Spirits needs some sort of adjustment, and our dots need to do more damage inherently before the other options will even be considered.

I agree with you, but the problem with buffing our DoTs is that it will make CoP-dotweaving inexorably more potent (and possibly still a stronger alternative than the other talents, barring redesigns). The only way I can see them escaping this catch-22 would be if CoP said something like "DoTs deal 30% less damage," which would effectively kill the only thing I currently find fun about my SPriest.

[Aica]

I agree with you, but the problem with buffing our DoTs is that it will make CoP-dotweaving inexorably more potent (and possibly still a stronger alternative than the other talents, barring redesigns). The only way I can see them escaping this catch-22 would be if CoP said something like "DoTs deal 30% less damage," which would effectively kill the only thing I currently find fun about my SPriest.

CoP-dotweaving becomes more potent, sure, but its uptime is so much lower than with the other talents (70%~80%?) that it should still be a decent balancing tool.

[Bullettime]

I agree with you, but the problem with buffing our DoTs is that it will make CoP-dotweaving inexorably more potent (and possibly still a stronger alternative than the other talents, barring redesigns). The only way I can see them escaping this catch-22 would be if CoP said something like "DoTs deal 30% less damage," which would effectively kill the only thing I currently find fun about my SPriest.

I could see them going that route of making VT and SWP deal less damage when picked. Dot weaving seems to be pretty unintentional and it's not clear or intuitive on how to even do it while just barely working. Definitely something there's a precedent of addressing.

It's just sad how the current tuning and Clarity pretty much take the appeal of being Shadow to begin with and crush it into the dirt. Void Entropy and Auspicious Spirits just feel "right" but the limitations and lack of oomph prevent their use.

[djack210]

Shadow is fine.

mythic tectus begs word.

[Dracodraco]

mythic tectus begs word.

You don't need to be good on every fight for the spec to be fine. Shadow is excellent on mythic brackenspore, for example, because of being able to save up heavy burst with DP to gib the sporeshooters, and sniping tons of SW / ToF uptime from adds. I've yet to see a mage or elemental shaman get even close to the damage / control a shadow priest has on adds on that fight, for example. Meanwhile, they do well on tectus due to needing sustained cleave/AOE.
Having a "niche" isn't a bad thing, it just means you aren't the number one pick for every fight.

[Bullettime]

You don't need to be good on every fight for the spec to be fine. Shadow is excellent on mythic brackenspore, for example, because of being able to save up heavy burst with DP to gib the sporeshooters, and sniping tons of SW / ToF uptime from adds. I've yet to see a mage or elemental shaman get even close to the damage / control a shadow priest has on adds on that fight, for example. Meanwhile, they do well on tectus due to needing sustained cleave/AOE.
Having a "niche" isn't a bad thing, it just means you aren't the number one pick for every fight.

To be fair, the main issue is that the talent intended to be used on an encounter like that ends up dog shit because of both design and tuning. We should be able to opt in better to talents for encounters like that, like others can, but the tuning is so far off that we're relegated to being generic burst nukers.

[Dracodraco]

To be fair, the main issue is that the talent intended to be used on an encounter like that ends up dog shit because of both design and tuning. We should be able to opt in better to talents for encounters like that, like others can, but the tuning is so far off that we're relegated to being generic burst nukers.

Which does indeed suck, but still doesn't make spriests "bad". MM was supposed to be able to do the same thing by picking up exotic munitions for the AOE damage, but the loss of lone wolf is too great for it to even be an option, putting the *spec* in the same situation as Shadow. Lucky for hunters, they've got two other specs that does well at AOE if it ever becomes neccessary (but so far it's just tectus).