Ideal raiding environment

[shammypie]

After the madness of the first week and my inevitable falling out with my guild I have come up with my list of traits an ideal raiding guild would have. I am starting this forum to get opinions on what other people would prefer in their guild.

Raid times
Theme: I love to play but my life and job will always comes first.
Rules:
1. to be in the middle of the week and/or a sunday night because any weekend night i am more likely to be out having fun in the real world.
2. To start a couple hours after i get off work and end around a normal bed time. Can go late early in the tier but never to push past my hard cutoff. Furthermore they shouldn't normally last until my hard cutoff.
3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

Loot:
Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.
Rules
1. No EPGP/DKP system that rewards long time players. This extends to loot council. These systems sound good in theory but have the same flaws as our government.
2. Unless they are being completely carried, all raiders new and old have the same chance for loot on every boss.
3. Don't be a d**k

Attitude/skill
Theme: Be competent not cocky.
Rules:
1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
4. Instead of berating players, leaders should always encourage good behaviour and give constructive criticism.
5. Raiding should be fun, joking and laughing at our mistakes should be allowed even during raid hours.
6. Communication should be mostly silent during an attempt unless its a farm boss.

More to come i'll keep updating this as people give me good suggestions

[Djuntas]

Why be inn a guild you can't attend to? Make the choice, I did for many periods trough my wow time.

If I cant commit, its not fun being inn the guild. Either I'm all there, or I'm not. Anything else is to stressfull and annoying.

[Deleted]

In a perfect world...

Unfortunately raiding guilds fall under two categories, hardcore unpleasant or casual friendly. The problem for someone like me who enjoys raiding and takes it seriously, I don't like or tolerate the kind of bullshit you get in hardcore guilds. New expansion is generally the worst in my experience for the dickish behaviour.

Been raiding on and off since Wrath, with most of my progress being done in Cataclysm. I just haven't found a guild with the right kind of attitudes to suit me. Not raiding Highmaul because of the crazy toxic attitude which seemed to spawn out of the launch troubles, I will probably just pvp and sit back until next tier and try and find another guild.

[Priya-tan]

I managed to find a guild that fit a lot of these wants pretty well. When I was in college I didn't care about social things so I sat and raided 4+ hours a night 3-5 days a week... but now that I have a job and a social life, I needed more balance. Managed to find a relaxed guild that raids 9 hours a week, starts an hour after I get home from work and ends 30 min before I go to bed... has flexible attendance because we all have full time jobs... it feels good

[Spiralphoenix]

For the most part reasonable, but you have some unrealistic expectations. No reasonable guild is going to give a brand new recruit the same chance at loot as established players. You say "everyone has a hand in downing the boss" - most times, this isn't true. Unless the need for you was dire, most guilds would probably put you in only on farm content until you establish yourself as a reliable, well performing player. Once a boss is on farm and you just come in and follow what a guild has already worked out and perfected, you really don't have an equal hand in downing it anymore. You didn't work through the struggle and the development of the well-oiled machine that beat the encounter. Once you have proven yourself reliable enough to be part of that struggle, then you deserve equality in the consideration for that loot.

Most guilds understand flexibility in attendance, but to a point. If your attendance is lacking, there is again no reason to give you loot at the same priority as other players who have consistent attendance + performance and will be there on every progression night to put that loot to use.

The whole "I have a real life and need to tell everyone about how the game is second priority" thing always comes off as annoying. Yes, there are people who don't, but the vast majority do - it doesn't make you special. What it comes down to is when you join a scheduled raiding guild, you are forming a commitment to other people that you will be there to work with them and not waste their time. Other people who have the same real life as you, and show up to that commitment expecting that the time they set aside will be used constructively. You know the schedule beforehand and agree to it. Obviously things outside the game come up but coming into that commitment leading with that will make any guild uneasy about your reliability. You decide what are reasonable cuts into that attendance and the guild will decide whether or not you are worth those cuts.

Most of the time with things like this, with people coming in out of the gate stressing their "real life" and how they need a lot of flexibility, seem to be from people who think that their time is more valuable than those they intend to raid with. But I suppose I am making a snap judgment. I don't suspect you will find many guilds with your requirements. That said, the LFG tool for N/H could very well meet a number of them.

[desert-wind]

3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

If you commit to something then show up ? You're basically saying u want everyone else to be available at your whim but not have any expectations set ?

If you sign up for a weekly sport, weekly hobby, any kind of meet up, you have a group of people EXPECTING you to be there. A girl wants to go out that night? Tell her you are busy and another night is better. If you see your own gaming as a problem, or something you should be embarrassed of, maybe you should stop gaming. Either find a guild that you can commit to or accept that people will not want someone who is unreliable and a ****.

I find

3. Don't be a d**k

&

1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.

particularly amusing because it's exactly what you are putting out there.

Everything in your post screams both of these things and I would dislike you not only as a raider but in real life as well.

Grow a pair.

Also it's clear you know that you were in the wrong with your guild and are here looking for validation.

[Deja Thoris]

I agree broadly with what you are saying but it really sounds like you want your bread buttering on both sides.

When you can't make it its' "I have a real life lol" but then when you can make it and theres not enough people to raid or you get benched then "the guild is shit because they can't even get a raid together"

It's a hard act to balance for guild leaders and to be honest the OP just reads "They didn't bend over for me / someone got loot ahead of me" I know I have a cynical view but as a guild leader I think I know your type.

A lot of guilds are starting somewhat fresh because they expanded or had to deal with the usual churn that a new expansion brings. Raiders need to be tolerant while dust settles.

[Deleted]

Loot council, if uncorrupt, is actually ideal.

It's not ideal, progress-wise, to spread loot to players who do not contribute as much.

[shammypie]

I agree broadly with what you are saying but it really sounds like you want your bread buttering on both sides.

When you can't make it its' "I have a real life lol" but then when you can make it and theres not enough people to raid or you get benched then "the guild is shit because they can't even get a raid together"

It's a hard act to balance for guild leaders and to be honest the OP just reads "They didn't bend over for me / someone got loot ahead of me" I know I have a cynical view but as a guild leader I think I know your type.

A lot of guilds are starting somewhat fresh because they expanded or had to deal with the usual churn that a new expansion brings. Raiders need to be tolerant while dust settles.

well it is an ideal list not a practical one

As far as attendance go, ideally you have a roster that can sustain a few people missing. It's not an excuse for a symptomatic problem but more where attendance doesn't need to be something that's required, enforced, and punished because omg wow is so important.

also to address the people arguing that time in guild blah blah and are arguing against my free loot policy you are exactly the reason i put the entitlement clause in there because every guild runs almost the exact strategy and its up for the people in the raid to execute it.

[Forgettable]

You sound like the kind of person that my raid group is trying to weed out of our guild. This is my biggest grievance with your post:

3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

Just because WoW is a video game doesn't mean it's not real life. There are 9-29 other people who want to raid, and they need you to do be effective, but... "Uh sorry guys I'm ditching on you for a girl." You don't have to tell a girl why you can't go out, just pick another night. If you're committed to your guild then don't book other things on raid nights.

Personally I have a busy schedule and don't have an extreme amount of time to dedicate to WoW so that's why I found a guild that only raids Tues + Thurs. Two nights per week is not too much to commit, still allows me to progress and still allows me to have a life outside of WoW.

[mmouser]

Now that raids are flexible I do not care if you come or not. But if you are a mythic raider, then expectations are set and if you fail to show up because of a girl, wife, husband, whatever then you are just being an a-hole to those who were depending on you.

I'm not raiding mythic with my guild this time because of people like you.

[Varabently]

After the madness of the first week and my inevitable falling out with my guild I have come up with my list of traits an ideal raiding guild would have. I am starting this forum to get opinions on what other people would prefer in their guild.

Raid times
Theme: I love to play but my life and job will always comes first.
Rules:
1. to be in the middle of the week and/or a sunday night because any weekend night i am more likely to be out having fun in the real world.
2. To start a couple hours after i get off work and end around a normal bed time. Can go late early in the tier but never to push past my hard cutoff. Furthermore they shouldn't normally last until my hard cutoff.
3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game. Or find a girl who understands or likes to play with you. You can also give a generic answer like "I have standing social things going on X and Y days each week"

Loot:
Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.
Rules
1. No EPGP/DKP system that rewards long time players. This extends to loot council. These systems sound good in theory but have the same flaws as our government. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with rewarding loyalty, but it should be tempered by ensuring skill and other factors are taken into account also
2. Unless they are being completely carried, all raiders new and old have the same chance for loot on every boss.
3. Don't be a d**k

Attitude/skill
Theme: Be competent not cocky.
Rules:
1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
4. Instead of berating players, leaders should always encourage good behaviour and give constructive criticism.
5. Raiding should be fun, joking and laughing at our mistakes should be allowed even during raid hours.
6. Communication should be mostly silent during an attempt unless its a farm boss.

More to come i'll keep updating this as people give me good suggestions

You're looking for a perfect guild, which doesn't exist. There are always going to be issues, so it's akin to finding your "soul mate." It's futile to spend any appreciable amount of time looking. What you really want is someone you enjoy being around, can put up with your shit (and vice versa), and shares similar values.

It's a needle in a haystack situation unfortunately. Typically I settle for guilds whose raiding schedule matches my availability and try to work out the rest as we go along.

Edit: The flexibility thing is tough. If you really want to progress, you can't be that flexible. Imagine if everyone was flexible and only had 50% attendance. Now, not only are you at risk of not having the right class makeup (not enough tanks, healers, whatever), but on progression fights you won't be able to move forward because it's a new group every time. I don't think there's anything wrong with carving out time in your schedule. People spend 8 hours a week watching football, and no one bats an eye, so why should this hobby be any different? Because socially it's more acceptable? Honestly, if you don't enjoy it enough to dedicate time to it, maybe it's not the right style of play for you.

What you're missing is that if you call off constantly, and there's no one to replace you, you are placing your needs above the entire guild's needs. You're saying your time is more valuable than their combined time, which is bullshit.

[Frederick]

well it is an ideal list not a practical one

As far as attendance go, ideally you have a roster that can sustain a few people missing. It's not an excuse for a symptomatic problem but more where attendance doesn't need to be something that's required, enforced, and punished because omg wow is so important.

But to me, my hobby *is* important, and I don't want to play with people who think it isn't. Very few guilds (other than bleeding edge etc) have an attendance requirement of 100%, most guilds in and around my level of play ask for 85-90%, which isn't difficult. There needs to be some level of accountability if you commit to something.

As a guild leader, I put policies like this in place to ensure that we can raid.

also to address the people arguing that time in guild blah blah and are arguing against my free loot policy you are exactly the reason i put the entitlement clause in there because every guild runs almost the exact strategy and its up for the people in the raid to execute it.

It is indeed up to the people in the raid to execute it, but if you didn't have the 19 people provided to you by the guild, you're probably not killing Mythic Kargath - from a guildleader's standpoint, if I have my hunter who's played with us consistently for over 5 years now, and we have you in his first raid - I'm giving the item to my hunter, because I'm pretty confident he's coming back next week whereas I don't know you from Adam. It only takes a few weeks of consistent attendance to work your way up in terms of loot in most guilds.

I'd strongly reccomend you try running a guild with the ideals you set out above and see how long it takes you to enforce some kind of attendance or loot hierarchy. Pure speculation: I'd imagine you'd start having people show up a couple of times a month, but taking vital pieces such as trinkets & weapons resulting in your guild's progression being held back.

[Detritivores]

Two main points of disagreement, echoing some other posts.

1. Raid guilds ARE a social commitment. Just like sports teams, parties, dates etc. Everyone has a "real life" and you come off as smug acting like you having a date is more important than 19 people expecting you to be online. Pick a guild with the correct number of nights per week that won't interfere with your social life and come to terms with the fact that those nights are off limits most of the time. Any reasonable team has back-ups and is fine with absences if you give advance warning (days-weeks, not day of). If you can't view a raid team as this kind of commitment, then you need to orient yourself with the LFG tool.

2. Your loot entitlement is real. There is no reason to dump loot on a new person until the leadership is certain they will contribute long term. Also, I'm not sure why you lump EPGP and DKP together. My team has run EPGP for years and it favors new people if anything, after they finish their trial period. But again, if you don't have the commitment to go a couple raids without a "fair" shot at loot, then you don't belong on a team and should just use LFG.

Your third section about attitude/skill I completely agree with. First two need some work though. I suggest taking these values and building your own team. It will help you understand the criticism in my post and others.

Lastly, if you don't care about killing things, then my criticism is too harsh. The environment you're describing has no place in mythic raiding, but a normal/heroic flex team with sporadic hours, no attendance requirement, and personal loot only could work. That is certainly a possibility with the way raids are structured now and the ability to pug easily.

[shammypie]

Two main points of disagreement, echoing some other posts.

1. Raid guilds ARE a social commitment. Just like sports teams, parties, dates etc. Everyone has a "real life" and you come off as smug acting like you having a date is more important than 19 people expecting you to be online. Pick a guild with the correct number of nights per week that won't interfere with your social life and come to terms with the fact that those nights are off limits most of the time. Any reasonable team has back-ups and is fine with absences if you give advance warning (days-weeks, not day of). If you can't view a raid team as this kind of commitment, then you need to orient yourself with the LFG tool.

2. Your loot entitlement is real. There is no reason to dump loot on a new person until the leadership is certain they will contribute long term. Also, I'm not sure why you lump EPGP and DKP together. My team has run EPGP for years and it favors new people if anything, after they finish their trial period. But again, if you don't have the commitment to go a couple raids without a "fair" shot at loot, then you don't belong on a team and should just use LFG.

Your third section about attitude/skill I completely agree with. First two need some work though. I suggest taking these values and building your own team. It will help you understand the criticism in my post and others.

Lastly, if you don't care about killing things, then my criticism is too harsh. The environment you're describing has no place in mythic raiding, but a normal/heroic flex team with sporadic hours, no attendance requirement, and personal loot only could work. That is certainly a possibility with the way raids are structured now and the ability to pug easily.

1. not mythic raiding environment i was describing (in how people tend to think exactly what mythic environments are). I am actually describing the unicorn mix between casual and hardcore. Think of my post as someone who is burnout vs someone who thinks everyone should bend to their whim. Ideally its a group that eventually reaches mythic and downs the boss. As for the number of people on the rose i would put it close to 30-40 maybe more where i can put one in and out whenever need be. You wouldn't need to pug but you can easily have a variable size for most things and when you start doing mythic the 20 people you bring will be your best and anyone who wants to be in that 20 will try hard and show up so that you bring them. I'd rather not enforce arbitrary rules to make people work for a spot and take them only to deny them loot because i don't think they have proven they deserve loot yet.

2. The idea is that wow isn't a commitment. For all you attendance fanactics think of it as a 50% requirement each week. The whole data night thing is something happpens rarely but often enough and without much warning. It's not as bad once you have been seeing the girl for a while but I tend to go long playboy stretches before i find one i see regularly enough. I fully don't expect anyone who is in college or younger to understand this

3. My issue with epgp and dkp is that they are corruptable and place value on the wrong things. Look at raid finder (the older harder version), you had approximately 1-2 healers, 5 dps, and 2 tanks (after kicking 5 of them) that did the fight while everyone did nothing (more or less). There are a group of 10 of them that all need on the gear (ds rules) and then pass it among themselves so you literally leave with nothing after done all the work. This system evolved into personal loot so that all players are at least rewarded equally with 0 drama because no one knows if anyone got anything unless they advertise. Now imagine that all those mouth breathers are people who show up and raid every week in your guild. That's why my ideal group would use a fair random chance loot system. Not because i feel entitled or want to be someone who sponges. I just don't want any drama.

fyi if your a hardcore raider then this thread isn't for you

[Kanadei]

2. The idea is that wow isn't a commitment. For all you attendance fanactics think of it as a 50% requirement each week. The whole data night thing is something happpens rarely but often enough and without much warning. It's not as bad once you have been seeing the girl for a while but I tend to go long playboy stretches before i find one i see regularly enough. I fully don't expect anyone who is in college or younger to understand this

fyi if your a hardcore raider then this thread isn't for you

This whole thread smacks of elitism, resentment and a surprising amount of egomania.

Obviously you have been in some guild which committed some imagined slight on you, from the way you are talking I would assume it was around loot, and now you are trying to create some "perfect set of rules" which takes the responsibility away from you so you can say "yeah but in a perfect world I'm right".

50% attendance is laughable. Loot would be so diluted you would never progress. As said above, go be a "playboy" (lol) another night - it's not really hard.

Also I'm pretty sure it's not up to you to tell people whether or not they can contribute to threads. Just saying.

[Deleted]

One of the most important things for any guild is reasonable expectations. So many guilds assume they'll be clearing mythic, and so few will. If people get the idea that timely mythic 7/7 is their level, they'll often rage and whine and undermine the guild atmosphere if things don't go swimmingly. They start looking for people to blame, start wanting to bench/kick any perceived underperformers right away, and begin looking for new guilds as soon as it becomes clear that they are not in fact going to be killing mythic Imperator before newyears.

However, I also think it's mistaken design to make heroic->mythic gear as big a jump in ilvl as normal->heroic. It should have been +8 or something. It isn't healthy for the game to have a raid difficulty that 5% of players are capable of but with rewards that make everyone feel like the previous difficulty is pointless. Heroic gear shouldn't feel like trash, but with mythic being +15 ilvl, it does.

[Clunky]

I agree with most of these as an ideal but I feel a certain amount of flexibility has to be put out to find the best fit for a raider outside of a casual setting.

For example

Raid times
Theme: I love to play but my life and job will always comes first.
Rules:
1. to be in the middle of the week and/or a sunday night because any weekend night i am more likely to be out having fun in the real world.
2. To start a couple hours after i get off work and end around a normal bed time. Can go late early in the tier but never to push past my hard cutoff. Furthermore they shouldn't normally last until my hard cutoff.
3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

Rules one and two are totally reasonable because you should be choosing a raid team that fits these in the first place. If you can't show up you don't join the guild, seems pretty straightforward. I looked for guilds that preferably only raided some combo of Monday through Thursday but was willing to add ONE of the other days if the raid group seemed like it fit me well, luckily I found on that only raids during the weekdays. I personally raid right as I get home from work and have about an hour after raid before I like to go to bed which works for me and a few others in my group but could easily not work for a lot of people.

Number 3 I think is unreasonable unless your in a casual guild aiming for just normal content and eventually hit some heroics down the line. You can't join a guild focused on end game progression if you are just going to randomly drop one of your two or three raid days because you wanted to do something else. Either schedule it another day or join a more relaxed guild.

Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.
Rules
1. No EPGP/DKP system that rewards long time players. This extends to loot council. These systems sound good in theory but have the same flaws as our government.
2. Unless they are being completely carried, all raiders new and old have the same chance for loot on every boss.
3. Don't be a d**k

Everything here seems ok if, again, you are in a really relaxed setting without a progression mindset. Any guild focused on progression won't spread loot evenly because it can hurt your chance at killing bosses, which at the end of the day is what you are all grouped up to do, not to get everyone loot. Loot should be a means to an end, not the other way around.

That being said I really don't like EPGP/DKP systems so I try to avoid guilds with them but I would never not join a guild for that reason alone. Loot council is by far my preferred loot style so long as the people on the council share the objectives of the raid, IE giving gear to the people who it will make the most impact on. I don't care if one of our raiders gets fully geared before I get more then a piece or two, as long as he is making use of that gear.

Attitude/skill
Theme: Be competent not cocky.
Rules:
1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
4. Instead of berating players, leaders should always encourage good behaviour and give constructive criticism.
5. Raiding should be fun, joking and laughing at our mistakes should be allowed even during raid hours.
6. Communication should be mostly silent during an attempt unless its a farm boss.

These are all good but you have to be careful of number 5 I think. Raiding should definitely be fun and if someone isn't having fun it should be a huge red flag to reconsider your guild and better yet reconsider why you are raiding at all. However if everyone is just laughing and joking at peoples mistakes and no one is seriously giving them criticism you can get in a situation where it never gets changed and you are constantly wiping to the same garbage pull after pull. This is covered with number 4 but I've been in guilds where this was a huge issue so just something I wanted to point out.

Also I know other people have pointed this out but a few of your requirements makes you break your own rule 1 here. You are acting entitled by joining a group with set raid days but also wanting to not show up whenever you want without losing your spot. Same with having everyone get loot no matter how long they have been there just because they were in on a kill, you make it sound like your entitled to loot because you were there, not because it will benefit the raid most.

Some things I look for in a raid group:
1. I have to like most of, if not all, the raid members. I don't want to dread hearing anyone talking over voice comm.
2. They have to be progression focused with the intent to down the highest level of content before it becomes irrelevant.
3. I highly prefer a core spot in the team, or more likely, the chance to earn a core spot. I don't want to be recruited with the intent to keep me on the bench forever. I understand going through a trial period and I understand sitting on fights but I want the chance to earn my keep, my performance will make sure I get a core spot.
4. And probably the most important to me is that the raid team is all on the same page with each other. I don't want a guild where half the people are min-maxing with progression in mind and the other half are doing everything half-assed. This causes problems and i've experienced this in one of my guilds in Cataclysm, the outcome wasn't pretty.

[Deja Thoris]

fyi if your a hardcore raider then this thread isn't for you

Whats hardcore? 3x3 hours? 2x4 hours? You can get decent progress with those times and 9 hours is less than most people spend vegetating infront of the tv a week. You seem to just want to waltz in and out of teams when you find someone to shag.

[Scrogglez]

Whats hardcore? 3x3 hours? 2x4 hours? You can get decent progress with those times and 9 hours is less than most people spend vegetating infront of the tv a week. You seem to just want to waltz in and out of teams when you find someone to shag.

hardcore would be mythical raiding at this point