Butcher HC help - Really don't know what we are doing wrong

[Dudebro]

Hi all,

Basically we have been on the Butcher HC for 3 raid nights now, totaling around 40 wipes in total.

Logs from tonight: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1706&wipes=1

We spent a long time comparing logs to other guilds which have successfully downed him and in some cases we have higher DPS and a lot of cases higher HPS.

We have healers rotating CD's at different points, and tanks rotating CD's with the healers.

Our best attempt was at 4 mins 55 seconds at around 4% to go.
Although this was rare to get this far, we'd normally wipe around 10/20%.

We have tried bloodlusting at different stages. Originally 35% for executes, then 30%, then 27% (27% was for just after his bounding cleave so we could maximize DPS without getting knocked back immediately.

We tried two main tactics: Two groups of melee, with hunters manipulating the size of the groups for cleaves, then the ranged stacking for bounding cleave.

and

The fatboss method: Splitting the raid in half then the side without the cleave stacks soaks the bounding cleave. But this way felt not as successful.

Any immediate reasons we are wiping so much on this boss from the logs?

Thanks

[Deleted]

At work so wil be pretty short in my reply, i browsed logs really fast. From 100-30% phase you can SWAP at 2 stacks of gushing wounds almost certainly if i remember correctly, you guys more often than not (at least on your best try) took 3 stacks before changing soaking group. If you can do it on two stacks it will help alot for both healer mana and damage taken.

also, try to assign healer targets, have each healer responsible for 1 target each in each soaking group maybe? or two targets each etc. HPS seems fine overall and shouldnt be a problem. As it looked now your shaman and druid healers are running on very low mana when the sub 30% phase starts.

For instance, you use 4 healers, and you use 4 people in each soak group, put one healer responsible for each soaker in each group
Healer A heals Soaker X in group 1,
Healer B heals soaker Y in group 1
Healer C heals soaker Z in group 1
etc.

WHEN soakign group 1 have 2 stacks you ALWAYS change (dont let them take a third)
Then Healar A is assigned to player X in soaking group nr 2
Healer B is assigned to player Y in soaking group nr2
healer C is assigned to player Z in soaking group nr 2.

WHen group 2 has 2 stacks of gushing wound, switch again to group 1, and have same assignments as before.

remember; youre still a team, so aoe healing shouldnt be negelcted like healing rain/shrooms etc.
Everyone watch for the tanks.
Have soaker groups use a defensive CD when taking the second stack.

30-->0% phase when butcher frenzies soaking groups have to take 3 stacks(maybe 4..cant give my word 3 is enough) rather than 2. This is also where u use smokebombs, and raid CDs etc. BUT still remember ur assign for a fast flash heal so you all not spam same targets etc.

The big advantage of this tactic is; you always know who to heal, and you know the target with 2x gushing wound stacks DONT need to be topped immediately with inneficient healing since that group wont soak for a good amount of time.

same with ranged group, after butcher cleaves you, DONT stress and waste mana to top you ranged off, let it take time with slow heals, its one full minute between those cleaves at ranged.

[Rhyseh]

Do not have any healers in the stack groups. Let them focus on healing only.

Also I would drop to 3 healers. My rule of thumb is 1 healer per group, with 16 people I would use 3.

I would also consider having your Disc priest go to Holy for the stronger AOE heals and healing increase raid CD. Up to you though, they seem to be doing OK.

Your rogue's DPS is below the minimum required. They need to up their game or you need to drop them. Have them focus on DPS.

Do:
Split your group in two
Alternate at 2 stacks up to 30%
Alternate at 3 stacks from 30%
Assign healing and damage reduction CD's
Have people using the First aid healing tonics when they are in danger
For Bounding cleave have markers setup at range for the group to stack on. The one without stacks will be the one taking it. Raid lead needs to call this on voice comms.

Really you are pretty close, you probably just need to assign raid and personal CD's with more granular precision. Good luck.

[Deleted]

also; raid defensive CDs should BE UP on sub 30% phase, i see no use of smokebomb and amplitfy magic there for instance. I understand some of them have to be used earlier sometimes, but really try not to!
I also see some second dps pots being used before sub 30% phase, which is good for your own personal DPS, but sucks for the healers, you wanna kill him fast as hell in that phase, butcher is killable easily after the enrage aswell, so you might want to make sure everyone pots sub 30% phase.

a mini tip for healers is also to spam their fast heals last 30% of they have the mana to spare, which i think you really should have in the ilvl you have.

Can comeback after 14.00 for a real log analysis if no further help is given by that time

[Aktec]

nvm read logs wrong

[Deleted]

30-->0% phase when butcher frenzies soaking groups have to take 3 stacks rather than 2.

Are you 100% sure on this, because I've seen so much misinformation about it (some dude even claimed you have to go to 4 stacks). I know The Butcher gets haste the last 30%, but I've found no reliable source telling me this is true for Cleave as well, every single source says "one cleave ever 5 sec".

[Deja Thoris]

Go and kill normal again. Most of you have killed it once and its your second reset. 640>>>655 gear upgrades are huge and to be honest if you play the same with more gear you'd get the kill.

[Deleted]

Are you 100% sure on this, because I've seen so much misinformation about it (some dude even claimed you have to go to 4 stacks). I know The Butcher gets haste the last 30%, but I've found no reliable source telling me this is true for Cleave as well, every single source says "one cleave ever 5 sec".

really really hard to give my word for it now that you ask.
if you look at our kill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8huJzKDyg

4.24/ 4.25 minute mark, and look carefully, might even wanna pause it the VERY second "group 3" in my frames get their third stack applied at the mentioned time. and then look for my debuff - one group gains the 3rd stack exactly when ive 4 sec left on my debuff to run out. however he knocks us back so i never get the answer if it actually works for real :/ but it should work in thoery...probably really hard to pull of practically tho? If you claim he does it every 5 sec, it should however NEVER do more than 7 stacks on gushing wounds in total, before he does the knockback, since he does it every 30 sec while frenzied, thus giving you 3+4 which is still 100% "safe" ?

SO in that case it might JUST be worth going to 4 stacks with each group and make sure to smokebomb/personal/amp magic etc pre-emptivlity when your group has 2 stacks and thus make the hits from 3rd and 4th more manageable :/

ill edit my original post since i dont dare to claim it being 100% true.

[Varabently]

DPS seems a little low, with several people being around 17-18k. If those people could push up to 20-21k you would be better off. I hope you guys are clearing normal before trying this. The gear will make it much easier IMO. That said, we only tried it on Heroic once and realized our DPS wasn't cutting it so we dropped to normal to farm a little gear. Still lots of people around 640 ilevel, which makes it a tight race. Your 4% wipe at the enrage underlines this IMO. Get 5 or 10% more dps and you'll be fine.

[Wilderness]

Your dps isn't doing too bad - although the hunters should be higher, as should the rogue. I don't know either class well enough to point out what could be improved. Our 2 hunters last week did just over 23k (651 ilvl) and just under 22k (641 ilvl), so yours can definitely be close to that as they are 646-648. Your rogue should definitely be higher than 17k at 640 ilvl.

But I really think that you just have too many healers. You shouldn't need 4 with 16 people. We used 5 with 26 on our kill last week. If you drop a healer you may have to work out your healing CDs a bit, but an extra dps will also enable you to kill it faster and spend less time sub 30% when the damage ramps up. You don't have to have everyone stacked in the groups, so you could have at least a couple of the healers out on their own so they literally never have to move at all and can simply focus on healing.

If you replace your rogue or have him or the hunters improve then you could probably eke out a kill, but your best bet will be to swap a healer to dps. It might take a wipe or two for the remaining ones to figure out their healing, but that will net you a kill faster, and more reliably in the future.

[Deleted]

I'm going to slightly steal this thread. We were trying HC butcher today with our guild and we kept hitting a wall at 10%. I realize getting the gear on next reset will help alot but I'd like to know if there are any obvious things you guys could see from our logs that we could improve on.

/reports/yQ3fDWw6cNTzKLJa#type=summary&cutoff=2&fight=23

Warcraftlogs^^

Not allowed to post links yet

[Dkdots]

I'm going to slightly steal this thread. We were trying HC butcher today with our guild and we kept hitting a wall at 10%. I realize getting the gear on next reset will help alot but I'd like to know if there are any obvious things you guys could see from our logs that we could improve on.

/reports/yQ3fDWw6cNTzKLJa#type=summary&cutoff=2&fight=23

Warcraftlogs^^

Not allowed to post links yet

Your windwalker monks are not pulling the damage they should be at their respective ilvls and neither is the hunter. You should also only be doing two stacks of gushing wounds until 30% and then you do 3 or 4 stacks. Definitely shouldn't be doing three before then.

Also, why are your healers taking stacks of gushing wounds? Finacle and tomaxi both got it 4 times on that pull, healers should never be taking those stacks.

[Deleted]

Your windwalker monks are not pulling the damage they should be at their respective ilvls and neither is the hunter. You should also only be doing two stacks of gushing wounds until 30% and then you do 3 or 4 stacks. Definitely shouldn't be doing three before then.

Also, why are your healers taking stacks of gushing wounds? Finacle and tomaxi both got it 4 times on that pull, healers should never be taking those stacks.

When boss knockbacks we had our 3 healers stack on top of each other to take the bounding cleave. I did think it was supposed to be 3 stacks when >30%, thanks for noting that!

[Pippo89]

We have healers rotating CD's at different points, and tanks rotating CD's with the healers.

Do only use cooldowns in such a way they're ready again for the soft enrage, and arrange them properly. That's crucial, and it was the way to our success. Some healers used their cooldowns before the boss hit 30%, and those were not ready in time.
After I've seen that, we re-arranged our cooldowns. Our kill was pretty fine, with 100% of the raid still alive.

We had two groups consisting of four melees, with a hunter assigned to each of them. Take two stacks until 30%, then you'll have to soak three stacks, as noted above.
Umm, our Bounding Cleave always got straight into the range camp, including the healers. None of us saw a problem with that. (I do know this will change in Mythic)

[Varabently]

We always lust after the first bounding cleave after the 35% marker. That way we get full dps. Obviously DPS need to hold their cooldowns for that phase to some degree. DPS should be prepotting obviously.

I think how we do the positioning is there are three markers equidistant around butcher. Each with 4 people + a ranged dps. The ranged move in and out to adjust for the stacking dots. I think we swapped at 3 stacks. DPS should be prepared to use tonics and personal cooldowns during the 3 stacks once he hits 35%.

Going by your log there, you may have one too many healers to be honest. I think a good rule of thumb is 1 healer per 5 people. So a group of 15 would have 3 healers, 2 tanks and 10 dps. Your DPS isn't so high that you can add another healer for cushion. If you've got everyone doing 22 or 23k, you can probably spare another healer, but your group is sort of on the cusp of the dps requirement.

Edit: A previous comment mentioned only doing 2 stacks prior to 30%, but we definitely have been doing 3, so that's not a hard and fast requirement.

[Deleted]

Not sure where the though of 2 stacks only prior comes in, we've been pulling 4 stacks all the way through the fight. Lust on the pull for CD's as everyones should be up around the 30-40% mark and just rotate healer CD's, again we put healers in with the groups (MW and holydin) so they can stacks heals on that group. I do have logs floating around somewhere with the wipes etc as well if anyone wants to question the strat, think we killed him 2 seconds into bezerk.

[Raiju]

really really hard to give my word for it now that you ask.
if you look at our kill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8huJzKDyg

4.24/ 4.25 minute mark, and look carefully, might even wanna pause it the VERY second "group 3" in my frames get their third stack applied at the mentioned time. and then look for my debuff - one group gains the 3rd stack exactly when ive 4 sec left on my debuff to run out. however he knocks us back so i never get the answer if it actually works for real :/ but it should work in thoery...probably really hard to pull of practically tho? If you claim he does it every 5 sec, it should however NEVER do more than 7 stacks on gushing wounds in total, before he does the knockback, since he does it every 30 sec while frenzied, thus giving you 3+4 which is still 100% "safe" ?

SO in that case it might JUST be worth going to 4 stacks with each group and make sure to smokebomb/personal/amp magic etc pre-emptivlity when your group has 2 stacks and thus make the hits from 3rd and 4th more manageable :/

ill edit my original post since i dont dare to claim it being 100% true.

My guild took a few attempts and we did 2 stacks before and 3 stacks after enrage without it being the cause of wipes. We noticed when retaining 2 stacks in enrage we did not drop stacks, repeatedly.

[Rinbn]

Hmm I see a couple of things that can help you.
Your healing druid doesn't use Ironbark enough. It has a 1 min cooldown and he uses it 0-1 times per fight (only looked at the +4min fights).
Your Tanks don't use healthpotions and they don't prepot and repot at enragephase so their dps i pretty lacking. should be atleast 14k for both (took their gearlvl into consideration).

Might be I overlooked their potting though but you can easily look through your logs and see who uses their defensive cooldowns + pots in that fight.
Its kinda important because if your tanks are slacking makes it so the healers have to compensate with more healing and as a result the dps gets less healing.

With all that said.. hps is fine-ish. Its just the tanks slacking

[Kiluo]

This helped me a lot ty.

[Deleted]

your dps is shit and you have an extra healer