Recommended ilvl for Butcher HM heroic?

[Simmias]

Don't listen to this idiot, he can't read. Always best to avoid the people who only read the headline (and not even all of it!), short attention span.

yeah don't listen to me. I'm a casual player who logs in a few times a week because of work (You know, the audience this game is aimed at nowadays) yet I still pull 20k dps at 640 il. The average player is far better than you think. But hey, keep on giving bad advice.

[Deleted]

Nah not really. Reading icy veins and pressing buttons is not as hard as you might think.

Sorry but Icy Veins is probably the worst site next to noxxic to get information from. You say it´s not hard to read something up and press buttons but you already failed at 50% of that

[Deleted]

The raid is designed around iLvL of gear from Normal.

So, i would suppose it's tuned around a bit under 655. 650? Something like that.

[Bigbazz]

yeah don't listen to me. I'm a casual player who logs in a few times a week because of work (You know, the audience this game is aimed at nowadays) yet I still pull 20k dps at 640 il. The average player is far better than you think. But hey, keep on giving bad advice.

Right so what you wanted to say is that because you have a job you're an average player? The average player is the guy who runs LFR, the guy who jumps into those premades and lies about knowing the tactics to a boss just to get in hoping to wing it (and thus dying) the guy who doesn't even know what simulation craft is. The average player is not the guy who is already in ilvl640 pulling 20k dps.

People keep saying "oh the game is easy bla bla" while completely ignoring the evidence. Not everyone can pull high dps regardless of how easy you or I think it is, not everyone can pick up the boss tactics and follow a strategy so easily, not everyone has fast reflexes or is able to learn from mistakes. The average player is not the above average player, the average player who posts on MMO champion is considerably better than the average player in game. We have people here who are among the best players in the world, the best players on their servers... The average player does not post on MMO champion generally.

I played in a guild that raided 6-9 hours a week even during heavy progress (and I'm currently in one now), these guys all have jobs and log on only a few times a week. Our raids last 3 hours and are finished by 11pm server time regardless of determination because people have jobs... Having jobs or being semi-casual does not make them average, server first progression raiding, challenge mode boosting groups, Gladiator PVP'ers... Having a job and not being online 24/7 does not make you "average"

If you're pulling strong dps competitive for your gear then it should be obvious to you that you're not average.

[Deleted]

It depends on what classes you have, though it's better now after the buffs to the weaker classes (especially mages are performing way better). The basic math is pretty simple, the fewer healers you have, the less dps you need on your dps. The scaling is mostly linear, but not really (doing it 10 man is WAY harder because it's almost impossible for 2 healers to heal which requires 20,7k dps per dps, using 3 healers bumps the dps per dps up to 23-24k). The more people you are, the easier it is with fewer healers and the less dps you need. At 30 man using 6 healers, 19k per dps is enough to beat him (assuming tanks and healers do some damage).

People saying 18k is enough have not been doing their math properly, it's tuned way higher than that. As for ilvl? I can push 20k+ as ret in 637, but a warlock is probably not able to do that unless they have better secondaries than I do. At 640, almost any class should be able to pull the dps needed.

[Deja Thoris]

People saying 18k is enough have not been doing their math properly, it's tuned way higher than that. As for ilvl? I can push 20k+ as ret in 637, but a warlock is probably not able to do that unless they have better secondaries than I do. At 640, almost any class should be able to pull the dps needed.

At groups of around 20 or so people the tuning is very close to 19k average per dps including tanks. This assumes a "standard config" of 1 healer per 5 raid members.

As to the OP's question, whatever ilevel allows you to hit that benchmark is the right ilevel.

[Deleted]

At groups of around 20 or so people the tuning is very close to 19k average per dps including tanks. This assumes a "standard config" of 1 healer per 5 raid members.

As to the OP's question, whatever ilevel allows you to hit that benchmark is the right ilevel.

No tank is going to pull close to 19k, definitely not with just one healer per 5man group, unless they are insanely well geared. This is tank dps which is barely attainable by the fastest guilds on warcraftlogs, and they are beating butcher in just over 3 minutes. A more realistic benchmark for guilds currently working on clearing The Butcher is probably 10-12k dps per tank.

[Karon]

With 1 healer per 5 people, you need to push out 19K dps per DPS player to kill Butcher heroic, on average. Whatever item level makes that possible for you, is the correct answer.

What the heck is a DPS Player?

[Deleted]

What the heck is a DPS Player?

Don't know if serious, but obviously a player playing the dps role. A tank player, a dps player. Makes sense.

[Karon]

Don't know if serious, but obviously a player playing the dps role. A tank player, a dps player. Makes sense.

ohhh thats what he means.
There is a word for it, it's called DD - Damage Dealer.

[Guitarfan]

Sorry but Icy Veins is probably the worst site next to noxxic to get information from. You say it´s not hard to read something up and press buttons but you already failed at 50% of that

Instead of only bashing, at least show us what a good information site is in your opinion.

[miffy23]

The DPS to aim for is roughly 19.5k per person. For most specs, 640ish.

[Deja Thoris]

No tank is going to pull close to 19k, definitely not with just one healer per 5man group, unless they are insanely well geared. This is tank dps which is barely attainable by the fastest guilds on warcraftlogs, and they are beating butcher in just over 3 minutes. A more realistic benchmark for guilds currently working on clearing The Butcher is probably 10-12k dps per tank.

Nowhere did I say tanks should do 19k dps. I said the average dps incl tanks should be 19k. So if a tank pulls 10k then dps need to make up the 9k/sec defecit collectively between them.

[Deleted]

665 lmao don't listen to this idiot bla bla bla...

You'll see pug requirements in 2-3 months of time. I won't be surprised at 665 after foundry release. People had no issues asking for 570 for SOO Normal in 5.4, that's 17 item levels ABOVE instance's item drops.

We killed it in about 10 attempts, guild average is in 640s. I'm currently highest geared at 654, we have one more very high player at 650-something (we both have lots of gold, bought a good number of BiS preraid gear on AH) but on the other end of the stick we had people with about 630, and an OS healer.

DPS wasn't much of an issue, healing was. In the execution phase members ran out of defensive CDs and slowly dropped dead, healers struggled to heal through the cleave and dots. 17-man with 4 healers.

[Deleted]

Blizzard recommends as close to 650 as possible, if you're good tho you should be able to do it at 640, maybe a bit less but you'll be cutting it real close.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

First week my guilds DPS ilevel averaged 637 and we were consistently about 8% to 12% to enrage. This week DPS averaged 643 and we got Butcher to 4% first attempt and killed him on the second. I think class damage buffs played a larger role since we had about 5 gain them but the ilevel was a factor too.

I should add that I only believe about 3 or 4 of our DPS are truly great at this point with the rest being average or right below.

[Varabently]

It seems to me that after clearing normal 2 or 3 times, everyone should be getting into the 645-650 range, which makes butcher pretty doable. I'm sure you could do it at 635 if everyone is maxxin, but that's probably not the case.

[Deleted]

I honestly have no idea what strats you are using which require 1 healer per 5 dps, but we (healers) were struggling immensely on the fight in a pug where everyone had ~640-645 ilevel. We had a hpala pulling 42k hps with a druid on 35 & me on 34k hps and that only barely lasted us through our entire mana pool with spirit flasks & sleep mana pots being used. This was a group of 12 people iirc, so nowhere close to 1:5.

[Deja Thoris]

I honestly have no idea what strats you are using which require 1 healer per 5 dps, but we (healers) were struggling immensely on the fight in a pug where everyone had ~640-645 ilevel. We had a hpala pulling 42k hps with a druid on 35 & me on 34k hps and that only barely lasted us through our entire mana pool with spirit flasks & sleep mana pots being used. This was a group of 12 people iirc, so nowhere close to 1:5.

Its clearly somewhat harder with less people since you have less passive healing effects like those from a druid and shaman.

Our hc kill had 24 people and 5 healers and top was 29k, bottom was 20k. We also had more defensive raid CD's.

[Deleted]

I honestly have no idea what strats you are using which require 1 healer per 5 dps, but we (healers) were struggling immensely on the fight in a pug where everyone had ~640-645 ilevel. We had a hpala pulling 42k hps with a druid on 35 & me on 34k hps and that only barely lasted us through our entire mana pool with spirit flasks & sleep mana pots being used. This was a group of 12 people iirc, so nowhere close to 1:5.

First of all, it's 2 healers for every 5 players, not 5 dps. 2 healers for 10, 3 for 11-15 and so on, so it not only includes the tanks, it includes healers as well.

As for 3 healers having such a big problem with just 12 people, there must have been some problem with what people were doing, that much HPS should not be needed. 2 stack gushing wounds, cleave dps split properly, tanks swapping often enough. That said, it is a massive gear check, not just for DPS but for healers as well. The damage output, especially in the last 30% is extremely high. With 4 healers on 12 players, the dps needed per DD is insane though, we're talking bordering on 30k dps, it's just not realistic.