Alliance lore needs more ...conspiracy plots.

[Deleted]

It would work better if they played it more in a supreme commander role, like Lothar had, a singular leader for their combined millitary. That would work fine. Problem is that when you put the leader of the biggest and main faction of the alliance into that role it becomes hard to keep those two roles distinct. They should have chosen someone else like Shandris. Or if Bolvar hadn't become LK he'd be great.

Yeah I guess it just boils down to Orcs VS Humans but i still feel The Horde have a better racial identity under a Warchief than Alliance ever have under King Chin or even a supreme commander. I just wish that instead of Team red and Team Blue that they could have a different political hierarchy, make them feel that they're different because they are, it's just not represented very well and all races of the Alliance are instantly turned into recoloured knights.

[Mihalik]

Alliance first step to be fixed remove human from leadership, I vote Malfurion as best leader for alliance right now (or at least candidate to be best), lets first sidestep the youngest shortest living race in all alliance, then start look at other major problems

The Humans put out the bulk of the Alliance military and economy. They are the ones that have to run around Azeroth to stamp out brushfires and patch up their collapsing Allies. Humans took the worst beating both during the Third War and the Cataclysm and were still required by everyone else to step up and handle shit.

The Night Elves are terribly shortsighted, unambitious and utterly lack political insight, not to mention proven not to be able to defend themselves from the Horde.
The Dwarfs are highly tied up in internal politicking and have historically always relied on the Humans to lead.
The Gnomes are Gnomes.
The Draenei have an almost insignificant tiny population, not to mention being new to Azeroth.
The Worgen are in the similar situation as the Draenei and the Gnomes, but their issues are further compounded by their history of unreliability.

The Alliance needs a centralized command structure, the primary contributor is logical to have a leadership position.

Every military Alliance EVER in history, always had someone take overall command. It's a strategic, tactical and political necessity.

Can you imagine an Alliance army in the field being commanded by 6 different dudes in the same time? Clusterfuck.

[sam86]

It would work better if they played it more in a supreme commander role, like Lothar had, a singular leader for their combined millitary. That would work fine. Problem is that when you put the leader of the biggest and main faction of the alliance into that role it becomes hard to keep those two roles distinct. They should have chosen someone else like Shandris. Or if Bolvar hadn't become LK he'd be great.

Most alliance gave Lothar the middle finger... Alterac betrayed them, Gilneas didn't obey anything he says, and Kultiras he couldn't even lead in first place since he never go to sea
So he basically controlled Lordearon and Azeorth (stormwind) troops
I won't mind go back to Lothar style as acting 'leader'

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In wc2 there wasn't lot of lore to talk about, but in wc3 and wow we have a far clear view on alliance races
And Humans are the shortest living (I don't count gnomes sorry, they already can't gave their town back yet) race, they have good features but blizzard really made them 'good' by dumping others down, I do view draenei as selfish but I also don't understand how immortal beings are not insanely smart and wisdom and know how to do in everything (selfish is not point here), nelf are 10000 years old average and they turned to cheerleaders to the 'glorious' alliance, dwarfs are also average 1000 year old, show more light heart mood and fun, and they still follow humans.. because reasons?
I don't understand why humans are the spotlight except because they can, warcraft now have spaceships (lol..) this isn't wc1 that was a medieval fantasy based, it developed a lot more with introduction of many others, horde have a troll beg'jin for warchief, why not change alliance leadership to another race?

[Mihalik]

And Humans are the shortest living and they still follow humans.. because reasons?

That is exactly why Humans lead. They are short lived, which makes them ambitious. The average Human only has a handful of years to dedicate to study or accomplishments. Humans are also legacy driven. They often do things for their personal or families glory. This makes Humans the most passionate, the most likely to leap without thinking, the most devout or the most insidious.

This ambition makes Humans numerous, industrious, and strong.

[Tenjen]

The Humans put out the bulk of the Alliance military and economy. They are the ones that have to run around Azeroth to stamp out brushfires and patch up their collapsing Allies. Humans took the worst beating both during the Third War and the Cataclysm and were still required by everyone else to step up and handle shit.

The Night Elves are terribly shortsighted, unambitious and utterly lack political insight, not to mention proven not to be able to defend themselves from the Horde.
The Dwarfs are highly tied up in internal politicking and have historically always relied on the Humans to lead.
The Gnomes are Gnomes.
The Draenei have an almost insignificant tiny population, not to mention being new to Azeroth.
The Worgen are in the similar situation as the Draenei and the Gnomes, but their issues are further compounded by their history of unreliability.

The Alliance needs a centralized command structure, the primary contributor is logical to have a leadership position.

Every military Alliance EVER in history, always had someone take overall command. It's a strategic, tactical and political necessity.

Can you imagine an Alliance army in the field being commanded by 6 different dudes in the same time? Clusterfuck.

The night elves havent really "proven not to be able to defend themselves from the horde", they did it just fine and caused a stalemate but it was a very expensive stalemate on both sides, but garrosh didnt really care for collataral damage and losses + a lot of the collateral damage was on the night elves side because almost the entire war between them was on night elf land. given the circumstances, the night elves fought the orcs well but neither side managed to defeat or drive back the other for a good enough advantage or victory.

[sam86]

That is exactly why Humans lead. They are short lived, which makes them ambitious. The average Human only has a handful of years to dedicate to study or accomplishments. Humans are also legacy driven. They often do things for their personal or families glory. This makes Humans the most passionate, the most likely to leap without thinking, the most devout or the most insidious.

This ambition makes Humans numerous, industrious, and strong.

You do know that shortest make them the most inefficient, they can't make a plan on long term, and usually screw up the most too
Malfurion can easily plan something that will result in 200 year, humans usually try to make something while they stay alive, reducing plan possibilities a lot

[Aeula]

I'd certainly love to see a little rebellion sprouting up here and there, maybe a few whispers amongst the kirin tor once they finally realise Jaina is batshit crazy? We got a little bit of a view into those kind of politics when Khadgar yelled at that arcane minion, but i'd love to see it expanded.

Varian's death -might- stir some shit up, I think Anduin is still considered too young to lead, so a regent lord would have to be appointed again, perhaps one who completely ignores anduin and starts up the alliance-horde war again? But to be honest I think blizz are focusing on this bullshit 'greater evil/good' crap with the legion, a faction i find really boring as they're little more than 'rawr kill', but I suppose we need to deal with them eventually...

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Turn jaina into psycho she was becoming in MoP, and make her provoke conflicts, create unrest, and manipulate all members of alliance.

Also, make her replace her heart with focusing iris, turning her into living nuclear bomb (for when the things get harsh to her, and she decides to go with explosive ending)

This actually sounds like something I had in mind, except she'd turn into an arcane abomination (With the undead abomination model/animations), but still intrigue must be done first.

[Florena]

It would be far more interesting if another dwarf would turn on Moira, after she has proven her worth to the alliance and lets say her uncle does not want to hand over the reigns once she is ready to take full control of Ironforge and he expects Varian to back him, but he backs Moira instead.

I don't know I'd prefer Moira scheming to throwing Muradin under the bus if we need some inner conflict.

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You do know that shortest make them the most inefficient, they can't make a plan on long term, and usually screw up the most too
Malfurion can easily plan something that will result in 200 year, humans usually try to make something while they stay alive, reducing plan possibilities a lot

And what 200 year plan is going to help fighting the threats of today?

[Mihalik]

You do know that shortest make them the most inefficient, they can't make a plan on long term, and usually screw up the most too
Malfurion can easily plan something that will result in 200 year, humans usually try to make something while they stay alive, reducing plan possibilities a lot

A 200 year "plan" is an exercise in futility. It's neigh impossible to plan for tomorrow, not to mention whatever comes in a year or ten. Also the actions of others are unpredictable.

What mystical 200 year plan would Malfurion have come up with to deal with the Scourge? Or Yogg Saron? Or Deathwing?

The issue with long lifespans is perhaps best exemplified by Maiev Shadowsong.

Maiev spent 10000 years dedicated to one task and one task alone, being the jailer of Illidan. Once her world was shaken and turned upside down by Illidan's escape and the Third War, she was obviously unable to adapt to the situation, being adamantly stuck to her established role.

Malfurion and even Tyrande are to some extent stuck in the same psychological loop. The entire Night Elf race is, as exemplified by their reaction to their first contact with the Orcs.

[sam86]

The night elves were kickass amazonian warriors, who hatched a plan that killed Archimonde, 2nd or 3rd most powerful creature in wow
night elves in wow turned to high school cheerleaders to support the 'amazing' humans
See the point here? Night elves turned from amazonian society to cheerleaders eye candies for the 'amazing' human leader, its not they made mistakes - everyone does - its blizzard current direction wants to make everything center around humans, it doesn't make sense a 10000 year old have less wisdom than 40year kid, wtf they were doing 10000 years?

[Mihalik]

The night elves were kickass amazonian warriors, who hatched a plan that killed Archimonde, 2nd or 3rd most powerful creature in wow
night elves in wow turned to high school cheerleaders to support the 'amazing' humans
See the point here? Night elves turned from amazonian society to cheerleaders eye candies for the 'amazing' human leader, its not they made mistakes - everyone does - its blizzard current direction wants to make everything center around humans, it doesn't make sense a 10000 year old have less wisdom than 40year kid, wtf they were doing 10000 years?

The Night Elves didn't "hatch" any plan. Medivh (Human) hatched the plan and pulled together the elements needed to defeat Archimonde. Jaina, Thrall, Malfurion. He visited all of them repeatedly guiding them to the battle of Hyjal. The sacrifice of the World Tree was part of Medivh's plan where he essentially had the Night Elves trade their immortality for survival.

You need to brush up on your WoW "history".

[Florena]

The Night Elves didn't "hatch" any plan. Medivh (Human) hatched the plan and pulled together the elements needed to defeat Archimonde. Jaina, Thrall, Malfurion. He visited all of them repeatedly guiding them to the battle of Hyjal. The sacrifice of the World Tree was part of Medivh's plan where he essentially had the Night Elves trade their immortality for survival.

You need to brush up on your WoW "history".

Medivh got them to work together. Malfy figured out how to kill Archimonde. Jaina came up with the plan to have the alliance and horde forces bar the way.

[Mihalik]

Medivh got them to work together. Malfy figured out how to kill Archimonde. Jaina came up with the plan to have the alliance and horde forces bar the way.

Considering that Medivh knew exactly who to approach, how to motivate them, when to get them together, where to get them together (Kalimdor, Hyjal) it's impossible to argue that Medivh didn't know exactly what had to be done. He just didn't chew their food for them too.

[Florena]

Considering that Medivh knew exactly who to approach, how to motivate them, when to get them together, where to get them together (Kalimdor, Hyjal) it's impossible to argue that Medivh didn't know exactly what had to be done. He just didn't chew their food for them too.

He was certainly critical to it working, as were the horde and Alliance defenders. I just don't recall anything suggesting he came up with the 'wisp tree nuke' plan and it doesn't matter if he did if Malfurion came up with it on his own.

[sam86]

Considering that Medivh knew exactly who to approach, how to motivate them, when to get them together, where to get them together (Kalimdor, Hyjal) it's impossible to argue that Medivh didn't know exactly what had to be done. He just didn't chew their food for them too.

Pls check wowcendor video about last mission in wc3 RoC, Medivh only convinced them to work together, as for plan, he had absolutely no idea what they can do
The credit of the plan is 100% malfurion, he is the one who knew how to exploit Archimonde arrogance against him

[Mihalik]

Pls check wowcendor video about last mission in wc3 RoC, Medivh only convinced them to work together, as for plan, he had absolutely no idea what they can do
The credit of the plan is 100% malfurion, he is the one who knew how to exploit Archimonde arrogance against him

1st I actually played the game I don't need to watch the video.

2nd you still don't get it.

Medivh spent the entire damned game guiding everyone to a specific place in a specific time for a specific reason. At end narrative Medivh explains what happened, and why. Getting the Nelfs to sacrafice their immortality to kill Archimonde and eventually heal the World Tree was part of his plan from the moment he started guiding the races to Hyjal.

If Medivh wasn't aware of that he would just had guided everyone into a hopeless last stand. Again you ignore who Medivh is.

[Florena]

1st I actually played the game I don't need to watch the video.

2nd you still don't get it.

Medivh spent the entire damned game guiding everyone to a specific place in a specific time for a specific reason. At end narrative Medivh explains what happened, and why. Getting the Nelfs to sacrafice their immortality to kill Archimonde and eventually heal the World Tree was part of his plan from the moment he started guiding the races to Hyjal.

If Medivh wasn't aware of that he would just had guided everyone into a hopeless last stand. Again you ignore who Medivh is.

He says the roots and forest and world would heal in time and that the world mo longer needs a guardian. He doesn't say 'just as I planned the elves blew up the world tree.' Just because he comments on the aftermath doesn't mean he necessarily knew how the legion would be beaten specifically. It definitely doesn't suggest Malfurion didn't come up with the idea himself. He may well have just known that if the world tree was taken then azeroth was doomed and that's why he lead people there. Ir maybe he did know, bur it doesn't really matter if Malfurion came up with it independently.

[sam86]

Medivh was only suggesting alliance, or pushing too hard to make one, strangely he (probably because he know humans too well) he moved entire horde, night elves, and very few of alliance.
Regardless Medivh know that only chance to stop Archimonde was to unite the horde and nelfs, think of it now it is completely stupid because u could easily kill Kel'thuzad or just destroy the book of medivh and archimonde won't be able to come in first place

[Florena]

Medivh was only suggesting alliance, or pushing too hard to make one, strangely he (probably because he know humans too well) he moved entire horde, night elves, and very few of alliance.
Regardless Medivh know that only chance to stop Archimonde was to unite the horde and nelfs, think of it now it is completely stupid because u could easily kill Kel'thuzad or just destroy the book of medivh and archimonde won't be able to come in first place

He tried for the whole alliance but Terenas, Arthad and Antonidas told him to stfu and wouldn't abandon their homelands to follow the cryptic advice of an anonymous self proclaimed prophet.

By comparison, convincing the orcs who wanted their own land away from the alliance to go was relatively easy. They wouldn't be abandoning an established homeland they wanted to defend.

It did take all three factions though to stop archimonde, the final defense was even Jaina's idea to buy Malfurion time. She wasn't the 'main alliance force' but she took a lot of survivors from Theramore, and still had a fairly sizable force for the final battle despite fighting a lot of orcs along the way. Kind of baffled honestly how they managed to not only beat the orcs to Kalimdor despite them getting a headstart and have enough time to build several forts for Grom to smash. Probably just for gameplay reasons just like how the elf gate thing in the undead campaign had its key split into three pieces...all three of them outside of the gate where attackers could claim them. (Guess even WC 3 had some plot holes for gameplay's sake.)

[Combatbutler]

He tried for the whole alliance but Terenas, Arthad and Antonidas told him to stfu and wouldn't abandon their homelands to follow the cryptic advice of an anonymous self proclaimed prophet.

By comparison, convincing the orcs who wanted their own land away from the alliance to go was relatively easy. They wouldn't be abandoning an established homeland they wanted to defend.

It did take all three factions though to stop archimonde, the final defense was even Jaina's idea to buy Malfurion time. She wasn't the 'main alliance force' but she took a lot of survivors from Theramore, and still had a fairly sizable force for the final battle despite fighting a lot of orcs along the way. Kind of baffled honestly how they managed to not only beat the orcs to Kalimdor despite them getting a headstart and have enough time to build several forts for Grom to smash.

You know Medivh was quite the scumbag, he goes and tells the humans and orcs about the coming threat of legion, but neglects to warn the other races in the eastern Kingdoms. Several of them might have actually listened.

Probably just for gameplay reasons just like how the elf gate thing in the undead campaign had its key split into three pieces...all three of them outside of the gate where attackers could claim them. (Guess even WC 3 had some plot holes for gameplay's sake.)

This has a lore reason actually the shrines had to be build on ley line nexi and their positions are fixed, but were hidden into pocket dimensions, making it almost impossible to get the tones, unless you have been told how to dismantle the spell and the location.