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  1. #1
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    Angry Is it ok for hybrids to do more damage than pures?

    In my opinion, it's a big design flaw the way they are currently going with it.
    What is the point of playing a pure DPS class? Except for liking their playstyle ofcourse. Only reason i will always stick to my rogue.

    -Rogue: have 3 different specs that each deal damage in their own different way.
    -Monk: has 1 spec that deals more AoE and single target than any of the 3 rogue specs. They can also be Tank and Healer.
    -Paladin: same story here.
    -Druid: same story except they can be: tank, healer, ranged spellcaster and melee. Both of their DPS specs beat all 3 rogue specs (if played to their full potential.)

    Rogues also have a standard 1 sec global cooldown (compared to 1.5 sec for the above mentioned classes) which means that it literally requires 50% more key-presses to do inferior DPS as a pure-dps class... (haste not taken into consideration)

    I just don't see the design logic here. What is the point of not tuning all pure dps-classes a little higher?
    I thought that was the trade-off of only being able to perform one role?

    I honestly do not see ANY reason to play Rogue over Monk (for example), except that i still stick to my rogue (10 years wohoo)

    I know we have some utility, but it's a way bigger utility (imo) to be able to perform any role in the game.

    Honestly,
    Give rogues a viable tanking-spec, or tune us (and other pures) 5-10% higher than hybrids.

    MOD EDIT: Further into the thread, it's generally agreed this is more of a "rogues vs. the world" question than a "pures vs. hybrids" question. Other pure DPS seem to be doing just dandy.
    Last edited by Kael; 2014-12-12 at 07:36 PM. Reason: gramma

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganthar View Post
    In my opinion, it's a big design flaw the way they are currently going with it.
    What is the point of playing a pure DPS class? Except for liking their playstyle ofcourse.

    -Rogue have 3 different specs that each deal damage in their own different way.
    -Monk has 1 spec that deals more AoE and single target than any of the 3 rogue specs. They can also be Tank and Healer.
    -Paladin same story here.
    -Druid same story except they can be: tank, healer ranged spellcaster and melee. Both of their DPS specs beat all 3 rogue specs (if both played to their full potential.

    I just don't see the design logic here. What is the point of not tuning all pure dps-classes a little higher?
    I thought that was the trade-off of only being able to perform one role?

    I honestly do not see ANY reason to play Rogue over Monk (for example), except that i still stick to my rogue (10 years wohoo)

    I know we have some utility, but it's a way bigger utility (imo) to be able to perform any role in the game.

    Honestly,
    Give rogues a tanking-spec, or tune us (and other pures) 5-10% higher than hybrids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wanted to make a poll, but i don't know how to do it

    I agree. I don't play a rogue atm but with the curent state and gear being usefull by many classes. The only reason to bring a rogue would be to not shard an agility dagger if one drops.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    A pure DPS class should not do more damage than a hybrid. In a perfect world they should all do the same exact theoretical max damage, and be balanced perfectly. That a class dont have a tank or healing spec, dont make their DPS spec more "valuable" than say the DPS spec of a Shaman or Death Knight.

    The "hybrid tax" was a stupid idiotic idea. I only play DPS, and I would rather not feel "forced" into a small handfull of classes just because they are "pure" (and because of this lets say 5% stronger).
    Last edited by Cerunnir; 2014-12-11 at 10:45 AM.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  4. #4
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    It's a balancing issue more than anything and no, pures shouldn't do more dps than hybrids. They should do the same, maybe more or less than others in certain scenario's, but in general the same.

    Pures should have the option of having a more AoE dps spec or single target dps spec, where it only gives a small difference in dps, nothing massive. Where hybrids are forced into the one dps spec they have.

    If pures did more dps than hybrids, no one would bring a hybrid dps anymore and hybrids would become pure tank/healers, à la Vanilla.

  5. #5
    If they're in their DPS spec, I don't see any reason they shouldn't be on par. You realize there are players who don't tank or heal on their "hybrid" class and only DPS, right? A DPS role is a DPS role. Gimping a DPS because "if they weren't DPSing, they could be doing something else" is foolish. It seems like an idea designed to just make hybrids classes who choose to DPS, no longer be viable at that role.

    It's an argument that doesn't make sense unless you also had "pure healing" and "pure tank" classes, at which stage a hybrid would be something truly special. But while they can only perform one role at a time, if that role is DPS, there's no reason to punish them just because you choose to play a class with 3 DPS specs instead of 1.
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  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    I agree. I don't play a rogue atm but with the curent state and gear being usefull by many classes. The only reason to bring a rogue would be to not shard an agility dagger if one drops.
    No, the reason to bring a rogue would be that the player behind the character is good. If the rogues do less damage, blizzard just have to adjust them upwards and balance it out with the other classes. Most DPS hybrids dont swap to tank or healer during a raid, and play just as "pure DPS" as a rogue or warlock would. If someone have a hybrid role in a raid, where they swap in and out of different specs then they should not be punished for making themselves usefull to a a raidgroup.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  7. #7
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    Okay, so if Pure DPS do more dmg than hybrids, there'd be no reason to play hybrids, a la' vanilla?

    But if hybrids do more DPS than pure's there'd be no reason to play pure's, sort of like... now?

    Hybrids were still played alot in vanilla. Paladins have always been one of the most played classes in WoW (along with hunter).
    As are pure's played now, even though mostly inferior. I know it's gonna be a never-ending war debating which is better, but im pretty sure what makes most sense to me, is pure's doing 5% more dps in all situations and the trade-off is only being able to do that.

  8. #8
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    This whole pure vs hybrid thing is nonsense anyway. People play what they want to play gutting classes because they can preform more than one role is bollocks

  9. #9
    Stop whining, we rogue are always at the bottom of the pack at the beginning of any expansion as we rely on gear that we don't have at the moment.

  10. #10
    Yes.

    /10 char
    Last edited by Cerus; 2014-12-11 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Whoops - thread title dyslexia ;)
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganthar View Post
    Okay, so if Pure DPS do more dmg than hybrids, there'd be no reason to play hybrids, a la' vanilla?

    But if hybrids do more DPS than pure's there'd be no reason to play pure's, sort of like... now?

    Hybrids were still played alot in vanilla. Paladins have always been one of the most played classes in WoW (along with hunter).
    As are pure's played now, even though mostly inferior. I know it's gonna be a never-ending war debating which is better, but im pretty sure what makes most sense to me, is pure's doing 5% more dps in all situations and the trade-off is only being able to do that.
    Nah, the problem at present isn't that hybrids are better. With the exception of monks, hybrids are firmly in the middle. What should happen is simply that the dps which is well behind - rogues, warriors and warlocks - should be brought up to the same level. There's a balancing issue to be sure. But that doesn't make one DPS spec being stronger than another DPS spec a good idea. It defeats the whole purpose. As above, ideally - all DPSs would do exactly the same theoretical damage, only varying by scenario.

    A druid in balance spec is a caster DPS, not a tank, not a healer, not melee. They should be doing roughly the same damage as all other casters on a given fight. If they're not, that's just broken balance. They shouldn't be doing less, because that's ridiculous. They're a caster DPS - not a tank, not a healer.

    The fact that there's the potential for that druid, for example, to perform other roles at other times is completely inconsequential while they're killing that boss. At that moment, they're a DPS, and rightly expect to be on a level playing field.
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  12. #12
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    All classes should do equal damage in PVE, regardless of spec, but that is not possible due to various factors like the PVP side of things.

    Only in PVP utility and survivability must be balanced with damage. In PVE it doesn't matter because you can't heal in a raid environment if you're not in a healing spec and you can't dps if you're a healer, at least not at any meaningful level.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by banur View Post
    Stop whining, we rogue are always at the bottom of the pack at the beginning of any expansion as we rely on gear that we don't have at the moment.
    so you saying we have to wait 1 year to play ... with current sims we will be at the bottom in blackrock foundry too..

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganthar View Post
    Okay, so if Pure DPS do more dmg than hybrids, there'd be no reason to play hybrids, a la' vanilla?

    But if hybrids do more DPS than pure's there'd be no reason to play pure's, sort of like... now?

    Hybrids were still played alot in vanilla. Paladins have always been one of the most played classes in WoW (along with hunter).
    As are pure's played now, even though mostly inferior. I know it's gonna be a never-ending war debating which is better, but im pretty sure what makes most sense to me, is pure's doing 5% more dps in all situations and the trade-off is only being able to do that.
    Why should your pure DPS rogue do more damage than my pure DPS Death Knight? (Unholy/Frost Dual Specced) You play a rogue, or a mage, or a hunter etc, because you enjoy the class. I play a Death Knight because I enjoy the class. In classic Paladins where a pure healer, in raid settings which is where more or less damage actually matter. Every class was pure in vanilla raids, where they could only fill one raid role. Yes, it was possible to DPS as a paladin or warrior, but it was terrible.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  15. #15
    Whelp.. I guess priests should be stronger healers than the others as well. And warriors should should do inbetween paladin and pure dps specs... ya know.
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  16. #16
    In theory, they should all do the same DPS. I play balance druid, and i have healed ONCE in all the times ive raided because we were short on healers. I don't think that i should do less damage than pure dps, as i would likely lose my raid spot if that were the case.

  17. #17
    Number-wise, both hybrid and pure should be able to deal the same damage. Their role is just that - deal damage and it would be unfair to be underperforming just because you choose to play a different class.

    Anyway, there are two problems:

    - the first and short-term one, Blizzard stated that rogues are fine and buffed other classes; it's automatic that rogues are going to drop down in the rankings, since the differences between specs are not that wide like before. Anyway it's a fact that with hotfixes other classes are just performing better than us.

    - the second and long-term one, pure dps have only one task to do: dps. If they don't do enough of it automatically they have "no place" in raid (take this sentence with a pinch of salt,you can do progress with any raid composition, more or less), while other classes have the additional functionality to cover other roles.

    Imho, pure dps classes are just a dying breed. Once you put all of them on the same level, an hybrid can simply do more things than a pure, and people will play classes that can do more things - only way to actually solve the problem is to have all classes as hybrid that can cover 2 or more roles, or at least a melee and ranged role.

    Rogue talking, we're not in a good spot atm, doesn't matter what Blizzard thinks.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganthar View Post
    What is the point of playing a pure DPS class? Except for liking their playstyle ofcourse. Only reason i will always stick to my rogue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganthar View Post
    I honestly do not see ANY reason to play Rogue over Monk (for example), except that i still stick to my rogue (10 years wohoo)
    You answered your own question. Play what you enjoy.

    Also, just because Mr McDruidboomkinton has access to 4 spec's, doesn't mean he's any good at all 4.

  19. #19
    Yes, it is perfectly OK. You're delusional if you think that people who play hybrid damage dealing specs will love the scenario when they're told to go heal or tank instead because of their low dps. Hybrid tax is nonexistant, that says Blizzard, so hybrid damage dealing specs should deal as much dps as "pures" do in every possible situation.

    Or, if you want to know my opinion on the whole balance matter, I would like class homogenizations and all post-BC s0-called "balance" stuff to be reverted. Warriors should be the best tanks in any situation. Holy priests should be the best healers forever and ever. Shadow priests should be a very needed raid mana batteries. Ret paladins should be unneeded shit.
    Last edited by l33t; 2014-12-11 at 11:14 AM.
    No more time wasted in WoW.. still reading this awesome forum, though

  20. #20
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Do not see an issue and I am a Warlock.

    A DPS spec is a DPS spec and should do as well as DPS as others pure or not... if he could suddenly in the middle of a fight go on and main tank or main heal no problem, then it would be bad, but it's not the case, so it's ok.

    When Blizzard tried to give preference to pure DPS, hybrid DPS suffered a lot and I never understood why, because they could not do the mentioned above and still were screwed (and incidentally dragging the raid down)

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