Is it ok for hybrids to do more damage than pures?

[Deleted]

No, you get to complain that your class sucks. Just like rogues do now.

Because ALL THREE OF YOUR SPECS ARE BROKEN. This discussion is about hybrids vs pures and you keep changing the point to suit your argument.

Honest question, ymirsson, do you actually raid?

[ymirsson]

And i try to tell you, unless you're progressing mit Method, you should be able to choose your favourite DPS spec. Because for rogues, DPS spec is synonymous with any spec. Just like any normal paladin would demand to choose the spec to play himself. Since the dawn of time, some(all?a few?) hybrids chose to shunt one or more of their possible specs. Which coincidentally meant possible roles. Which is fine. Unless of course those specs underperform, which should just not happen.
And EXACTLY the same treatment should be the norm for other classes. Nothing more, nothing less.

And the situation at hand is even worse: all 3 rogue specs are below average. What do you propose?

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I do.

This discussion started as hybrids vs pures regarding their damage.
And now we're at hybrids vs pures regarding their spec if the damage is lacking.
Of course i change the point, just to confuse you lesser players of malleable characters.

[cfStatic]

You need to understand that there is no such thing as hybrid dps spec. There is classes with 3 dps specs and some classes with 1 or 2 dps spec, each of these dps specs should bring about as much dps to raid as any. Pure dps classes just have more options to choose which dps spec they play.

IF DPS Spec = DPS Spec
THEN all DPS specs need to excel at everything

Regarding Rogues, this is not the case. There's no choice for us. We either play a spec we possibly hate(which is exactly the same as playing a role you hate, btw) or we do sub par dps and run the risk of getting benched.

'But but... combat and assassin and sub are all dps specs, you can still do dps wahhhhhhh'

No. Combat is completely different than Subtlety for example.

[Deleted]

And i try to tell you, unless you're progressing mit Method, you should be able to choose your favourite DPS spec.

Then, by the same logic, unless you're "raiding with Method" (I read as in progression raiding), why do you care about DPS at all? Play whatever you like.

[ymirsson]

I do not care about DPS per se, but about fairness and equality. Hard to define, harder to achieve.
And some people like to care, even when not racing for world firsts.

[Deleted]

IF DPS Spec = DPS Spec
THEN all DPS specs need to excel at everything

And i'm telling you this will never happen. It's not just Rogues that are in this position, EVERY class is in this position in EVERY role. Disc Priest was OP in MoP And Holy was bad in MoP overall. However, there were still some fights where Holy was better than Disc. Why? Because fight mechanics and class mechanics sometimes have synergy and sometimes they do not. It's the same with tanks and DPS. WHich is why I said in my other post, all dps specs will and always will have strengths and weaknesses. And this is not a balance issue, this is a game mechanics feature. Every pure I have ever raided with, even if one spec was better than the other, has ALWAYS changed their spec to suit the fight. And this, now wait for it because this has been my standing point from the start, this..... is why pure will always have an advantage over hybrid WHEN BALANCED.

You want to complain that Rogues are bad? Great. I agree. They are bad right now. But once balanced, they will be fine for every fight because you can adapt by changing spec and hybrid cannot. Now who is being stubborn, the Shadow Priest who has one option or the Rogue who simply doesn't want to play another spec in order to be OP just because they don't fancy the playstyle?

[cfStatic]

Then, by the same logic, unless you're "raiding with Method" (I read as in progression raiding), why do you care about DPS at all? Play whatever you like.

I'd argue to the otherwise. DPS comes with familiarity with the fights and gear. If you're just starting progression, DPS means shit all until you can consistently nail the mechanics.

[F4ulty]

Rogues also have a standard 1 sec global cooldown (compared to 1.5 sec for the above mentioned classes) which means that it literally requires 50% more key-presses to do inferior DPS as a pure-dps class... (haste not taken into consideration)

The Math is strong with this one.

Anyways, they can hardly tune the classes as is, much less with making sure a few select classes are always on top. If it makes you feel any better, Rogue is at the top of my 'emergency reroll' list, from playing a Shaman.

[Jayma]

I am aware that it is bad. I'm also aware that Devouring Plague isn't great either. I'm also aware that Warrior self healing is not great. Mage is non existent also. Why are you complaining?

I wasn't complaining just not sure why leeching poison would be used in any healing argument. It's also a talent while most heals in the discussion are not. '
To be clear I could care less about self healing balance as long as it's not blatantly too strong.

[Deleted]

I wasn't complaining just not sure why leeching poison would be used in any healing argument. It's also a talent while most heals in the discussion are not. '
To be clear I could care less about self healing balance as long as it's not blatantly too strong.

Agree. I don't think self healing needs to be balanced at all. I only bought it up because somebody was comparing the self healing. Most Rogues choose to not spec it in favour of more survivability and then complain about lack of self healing even though the Rogue is all about survivability in the first place. Boggles the mind...

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I'd argue to the otherwise. DPS comes with familiarity with the fights and gear. If you're just starting progression, DPS means shit all until you can consistently nail the mechanics.

But the point still stands, if you're not in progression raiding then why do you care about DPS so much? Even the bottom ranked DPS is still capable of numbers within the 10-15% range of the median. If you're in a casual guild, it's all you need.

And honestly, the best Rogue player in the world would kick your ass as the worst spec in the game still. Very few people play their spec to maximum potential. But that's off topic.

[cfStatic]

Agree. I don't think self healing needs to be balanced at all. I only bought it up because somebody was comparing the self healing. Most Rogues choose to not spec it in favour of more survivability and then complain about lack of self healing even though the Rogue is all about survivability in the first place. Boggles the mind...

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You will be kicked from any progression guild if you have bad dps, despite being able to nail the mechanics.

That wasn't the argument I was making.

[Kael]

Since we can't seem to debate whether pures vs. hybrids is a balance issue or a separate issue, and since that's dominating the discussion, I'm going to close this. All arguments have realistically been presented and rehashed at this point.