What is the point of having Item Levels?

[JohnBrown1917]

Addons did this before the actual ilvl on items was visible. Namely, Gearscore (a term you are clearly familiar with already!)

If Blizzard removed visible ilvls from items, addons would simply emerge again to calculate it for you and the situation would be the same. There is always going to be elitism based on minimum gear perceived gear levels. If you want to "fix" that you have to remove gearing.

LFM VoA, 5k gearscore, achi needed.



I remember all of its horrors.

[tuesday the paladin]

*points to regular raid runs now that require a person to have a gearscore much higher than the loot table of certain raid has.. Ya that's not a problem...

Just looking through the premade group finder the vast majority of groups that set an ilvl requirement are in the 630 to 640 range. The few that had higher ilvl requirements than that were specifically for the last boss, or the last two. It's also been commonly stated that the last boss on normal is harder than the first four or five bosses on heroic so it's not unreasonable to want people to have picked up a little bit of loot from the previous bosses. Also normal highmaul drops 655 loot, just from my quick look through the premade finder I saw a total of zero groups requiring >= 650 ilvl.

[Deleted]

Because generally you want to be able to clear bosses, and doing pulls of Butcher and kicking the guys who do under 15k DPS until you have a decent group is WAY more tedious than "LFM Highmaul normal req 640"

[Depakote]

lol.. I don't care anymore. I try to be rational but i forget that logic is a rare commodity these days.

That being said... There was a time when while I was on Coilfang when people were just wanting people to run stuff with not caring what their gearschore or item level was. That didn't matter as long as people could learn the encounter and not do stupid shit too much. Nowadays it's all impatient kids wanting their welfare epics with doing as little work as possible in the raid, not communicating with anyone in said raid OR game and forcing that train of thought onto the rest of the game's community which leads this game to have one of the most toxic communities i've ever seen in any game.

[zoomgpally]

Without item levels, we have gearscore...which is worse.

To be fair, gearscore valued weapons higher than rings, so it was actually better.

[Banquetto]

There was a time when while I was on Coilfang when people were just wanting people to run stuff with not caring what their gearschore or item level was. That didn't matter as long as people could learn the encounter and not do stupid shit too much. Nowadays it's all impatient kids wanting their welfare epics with doing as little work as possible in the raid, not communicating with anyone in said raid OR game and forcing that train of thought onto the rest of the game's community which leads this game to have one of the most toxic communities i've ever seen in any game.

Ah well. At least Coilfang still has one person organizing groups without gear requirements, and teaching new and inexperienced people the encounters.

What days do you run your raids on, Depakote? I think some people might like to join you.

[Valech]

lol.. I don't care anymore. I try to be rational but i forget that logic is a rare commodity these days.

That being said... There was a time when while I was on Coilfang when people were just wanting people to run stuff with not caring what their gearschore or item level was. That didn't matter as long as people could learn the encounter and not do stupid shit too much. Nowadays it's all impatient kids wanting their welfare epics with doing as little work as possible in the raid, not communicating with anyone in said raid OR game and forcing that train of thought onto the rest of the game's community which leads this game to have one of the most toxic communities i've ever seen in any game.

I will try to break it down into very small bits for you. The itemlevel is only a CATEGORY, a name, a brand or however you want to label it. Gearscore itself does NOT determine how much stats are on an item, it only DISPLAYS how much stats are on an item. You have a cloth piece with 1 int on it? cg, it now has an itemlvl. You cannot REMOVE the itemlevel of items because the itemlevel is an INHERENT PROPERTY of the item. Take it like this: If you remove the numeration of pages in a random book, the book will still have a sixth, seventh and twenty-ninth page.

What you want is a change of mindset in the playerbase. I always suspect, that people like you want to be carried along although you do not give a rat´s ass about your equipment but even if that was not true and you selflessly advance an utilitaristic idea you STILL forget, that people are totally free to set their own raid requirements as they please. They want you to be full mythic to raid nhc with them? So be it! Nobody forces you to run with them. And I encourage you to start your own PUGs with vastly undergeared people. And even if you wipe for an hour on the first encounter, it would still be more productive then scapegoating the wrong cause and whining in the forum.

[Wrathorian]

lol.. I don't care anymore. I try to be rational but i forget that logic is a rare commodity these days.

That being said... There was a time when while I was on Coilfang when people were just wanting people to run stuff with not caring what their gearschore or item level was. That didn't matter as long as people could learn the encounter and not do stupid shit too much. Nowadays it's all impatient kids wanting their welfare epics with doing as little work as possible in the raid, not communicating with anyone in said raid OR game and forcing that train of thought onto the rest of the game's community which leads this game to have one of the most toxic communities i've ever seen in any game.

Then why bother asking people questions if you think they lack logic and irrational?

Besides, elitism has always been a thing. From vanilla to WoD. It was even worse back in the days. The amount of people who actually experienced old Naxxramas was extremely low and you always looked amazed to those with Naxx gear. Now you can be very casual and still see what this game has to offer via LFR and Normal mode raids.

[Einzweidrei]

*points to regular raid runs now that require a person to have a gearscore much higher than the loot table of certain raid has.. Ya that's not a problem...

Nobody is requiring 660 ilvl to get into normal highmaul groups. Exaggeration won't get you anything but trolled.

And ilvls/gearscore are not a problem. Neither are the people who want to only play with others of a certain ilvl/gearscore. It's the most reliable/simple method of somewhat evaluating the pug player you're about to get without an NSA background check into armories, achievements, and other out-of-game stuff.


Seriously. Go make your own groups where you accept anyone of any ilvl but have some ridiculous background check system if you think ilvl/gearscore stuff is so terrible.

[Wolfheart9]

lol.. I don't care anymore. I try to be rational but i forget that logic is a rare commodity these days.

That being said... There was a time when while I was on Coilfang when people were just wanting people to run stuff with not caring what their gearschore or item level was. That didn't matter as long as people could learn the encounter and not do stupid shit too much. Nowadays it's all impatient kids wanting their welfare epics with doing as little work as possible in the raid, not communicating with anyone in said raid OR game and forcing that train of thought onto the rest of the game's community which leads this game to have one of the most toxic communities i've ever seen in any game.

1) Complains about iLevel and the elitism it brings with certain players.
2) Is given a logical answer that if they took out iLevel, addons would calculate gearscore based on total stats on an item.
3) Has players that played prior to iLevel confirming that was how it was, and that there has always been extreme requirements from that same group of players.
4) Says he doesn't care and calls those giving logical answers irrational..

That about sum up what's happened in this thread so far? Kinda feels like there's another rant wanting to be had but this was attempted to be used as the source. Any raid leader that requires you to be fully decked out in the gear that particular raid drops isn't worth your time, find something else. I avoid those like the plague even if I meet the requirements.

[Einzweidrei]

That being said... There was a time when while I was on Coilfang when people were just wanting people to run stuff with not caring what their gearschore or item level was. That didn't matter as long as people could learn the encounter and not do stupid shit too much. Nowadays it's all impatient kids wanting their welfare epics with doing as little work as possible in the raid, not communicating with anyone in said raid OR game and forcing that train of thought onto the rest of the game's community which leads this game to have one of the most toxic communities i've ever seen in any game.

Great. Good for you and Coilfang. You and those other people did what you wanted to do. That's perfect, and I am NOT being sarcastic.

Now try to wrap your head around the fact that people who ask for a certain ilvl to run something are doing what they want to do also.

[Arganis]

People needed an easy way to tell a player's 'worth'. In ilvl's defense, it may not be a measure of a player's skill but it at least gives you an idea of his 'potential' dps output, which is why it's used.

[snuzzle]

Its not the games fault if the people are stupid.
If there was no item level, you would have "gearscore".
If there was no gearscore, those same idiots would require "LF ONLY DD WITH MORE THAN XXX INTELLECT/STRENGTH".

Well, honestly, that would be a slight improvement, because at least that would actively discourage people putting on inappropriate gear to bump up their average item level. Although that problem is mostly gone with WOD because most gear changes based on your spec, since non-armor pieces don't though I still see hunters with int rings and DKs with agility stuff because "better item level".

[Grym]

Then why not just remove gearscore and ilvls from the game? They really don't serve any purpose...

Or just remove ilevel. Cause that'll put a stop to everything, too. Because you can really stop someone from being an "elitist" that way.

Without ilvl, people will use Gearscore.

If Blizzard block Gearscore, people will ask you for you total Int/Strength, if you refuse to disclose, there is always the Armoury.

If you remove Amoury, people will simply ask you to stand still so they can check you and add up your int/strength manually.

As long as there are difference in power of gear, people will always take the one with more power. To stop this you will have to take away the power on gear, so all gear then becomes vanity only.

But even then, Blizzard WILL make vanity that only the hardest raid will drop, then that will become the next benchmark, how many unique vanity pieces you have.

Basically people will always find a way to exclude the lower end players and the less experience players. If there are really so much inexperienced players out there, I have a great idea, they can all form a group together and learn the fights together.

[Grummgug]

they COULD kill ilvl / GS / "stand still & lemme look at your junk" by banning the ability to make yoyr own groups and raids and forcing everyone to either use lfr or not raid.

[Daedius]

ilvl is what the game uses to calculate the scaling of gear...

[Grym]

they COULD kill ilvl / GS / "stand still & lemme look at your junk" by banning the ability to make yoyr own groups and raids and forcing everyone to either use lfr or not raid.

That is a good way to kill the game if you see how much LFR hate there are.

[Deleted]

Troll bait

[Servasus]

Then why not just remove gearscore and ilvls from the game? They really don't serve any purpose...

There will always be addons that would be able to track gearscore. There's no reason NOT to have them already programmed in the game.

Unless you're suggesting that all gear be the same stat budget no matter what difficulty you raid in, which if that's the case is just simply retarded.

[tj119]

It gives bad players a "my ilvl is higher than yours so I'm obviously better" attitude duh