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  1. #1

    6.2 Retribution Theorycraft & Discussion

    Right back at it again, like before we'll be hammering out anything Retribution, as well as settling the groundwork for the optimal talent builds, rotations, and gearing methods with patch 6.2. The following is a compilation of where we stand now. As usual, any and all of this is subject to change, and will be reflected as such in the points to follow.



    Stat priority & weights





    Our stat balance can be summarized as:

    Final Verdict stat priority:
    Strength > Mastery > Multistrike = Critical Strike = Haste > Versatility


    Empowered Seals stat priority:
    Strength > Mastery > Haste > Multistrike = Critical Strike > Versatility


    Seraphim Stat Priority:
    Strength > Mastery = Haste > Multistrike = Critical Strike > Versatility




    It's worth noting that the above stat weights are derived from arduous testing. They're close to representing our overall stat balance for any given talent. Mastery is our dominant secondary for all talent combinations, followed by Multistrike, Critical Strike and Haste. the value of these stats is such that depending on where your gear is at any one of those three could be better than the other two, until a sufficient amount of rating is acquired to tip the balance in another stats favor. Versatility remains our least desirable secondary; though not bad, it just doesn't compete well if it isn't paired with mastery on the same item. If you wish to find the values of any given stat for your character, it's my recommendation that you should utilize SimulationCraft to determine those values.

    Haste's value is very fluid, and continues to be a stat subject to plateaus. These points are purely theoretical, and vary from talent to talent. Should you choose to stack haste, or ignore it in favor of either Crit or Multistrike you probably will not notice any difference by any practical means. Despite what most simulations show regarding this, it is often best to find some middle ground when considering scale factors for haste (especially with Seraphim). Human error and fight mechanics, in practice, will render these points largely irrelevant.


    Talent Balance

    Single Target - T18M - No Legendary


    Single Target - T18M - Legendary
    ]


    This is a rough generalization of our 75/100 talents performance in a Patchwerk (single target) scenario. The Above results use a roughly six minute fight length.

    Note: The above HFC result use a Normalized set of gear (balanced stat budget). It is not representational of an optimized run for most talent setups. Talent choices are fairly close, the only deciding factor in determining which talent you should use on a boss to boss basis is rooted in the niche strengths of any given talent. Thanks to the flexibility of our tier bonuses, all level 100 talents are viable and will have uses depending on DPS requirements. The same cannot be said for the level 75 tier, SW thanks to its greater up time and the additional charges of Avenging Wrath from the two piece, is the strongest single target talent - bar none.

    Simcraft APL:
    Spoiler: 
    Code:
    paladin="Paladin_Retribution"
    level=100
    race=blood_elf
    role=attack
    position=back
    talents=0000000
    glyphs=
    spec=retribution
    
    actions.precombat=flask,type=greater_draenic_strength_flask
    actions.precombat+=/food,type=sleeper_surprise
    actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=!aura.str_agi_int.up
    actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
    actions.precombat+=/seal_of_truth,if=equipped.empty_drinking_horn&active_enemies<2
    actions.precombat+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=equipped.empty_drinking_horn&active_enemies>=2
    actions.precombat+=/seal_of_truth,if=active_enemies<3&!equipped.empty_drinking_horn
    actions.precombat+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=active_enemies>=3&!equipped.empty_drinking_horn
    actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
    actions.precombat+=/potion,name=draenic_strength
    
    # Executed every time the actor is available.
    
    actions=rebuke
    actions+=/potion,name=draenic_strength,if=(buff.bloodlust.react|buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.time_to_die<=40)
    actions+=/auto_attack,target_if=dot.censure.remains<4
    actions+=/speed_of_light,if=movement.distance>5
    actions+=/judgment,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&time<2
    actions+=/seal_of_truth,if=equipped.empty_drinking_horn&spell_targets.divine_storm<2&!talent.empowered_seals.enabled
    actions+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=equipped.empty_drinking_horn&spell_targets.divine_storm>=2&!talent.empowered_seals.enabled
    actions+=/seal_of_truth,if=spell_targets.divine_storm<3&!talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!equipped.empty_drinking_horn
    actions+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=spell_targets.divine_storm>=3&!talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!equipped.empty_drinking_horn
    actions+=/execution_sentence,if=!talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/execution_sentence,sync=seraphim,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/lights_hammer,if=!talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/lights_hammer,sync=seraphim,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/use_item,name=thorasus_the_stone_heart_of_draenor,if=buff.avenging_wrath.up
    actions+=/avenging_wrath,sync=seraphim,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/avenging_wrath,if=!talent.seraphim.enabled&set_bonus.tier18_4pc=0
    actions+=/avenging_wrath,if=!talent.seraphim.enabled&time<20&set_bonus.tier18_4pc=1
    actions+=/avenging_wrath,if=prev.execution_sentence&set_bonus.tier18_4pc=1&talent.execution_sentence.enabled&!talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/avenging_wrath,if=prev.lights_hammer&set_bonus.tier18_4pc=1&talent.lights_hammer.enabled&!talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/holy_avenger,sync=avenging_wrath,if=!talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/holy_avenger,sync=seraphim,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/holy_avenger,if=holy_power<=2&!talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions+=/blood_fury
    actions+=/berserking
    actions+=/arcane_torrent
    actions+=/seraphim
    actions+=/wait,sec=cooldown.seraphim.remains,if=talent.seraphim.enabled&cooldown.seraphim.remains>0&cooldown.seraphim.remains<gcd.max&holy_power>=5
    actions+=/call_action_list,name=cleave,if=spell_targets.divine_storm>=3
    actions+=/call_action_list,name=single
    
    actions.single=divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&(holy_power=5|buff.holy_avenger.up&holy_power>=3)&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&(holy_power=5|buff.holy_avenger.up&holy_power>=3)&spell_targets.divine_storm=2&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=(holy_power=5|buff.holy_avenger.up&holy_power>=3)&spell_targets.divine_storm=2&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&(holy_power=5|buff.holy_avenger.up&holy_power>=3)&(talent.seraphim.enabled&cooldown.seraphim.remains<gcd*4)
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=(holy_power=5|buff.holy_avenger.up&holy_power>=3)&(buff.avenging_wrath.down|target.health.pct>35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*4)
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=buff.divine_purpose.react&buff.divine_purpose.remains<3
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&buff.divine_crusader.remains<3&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.single+=/final_verdict,if=holy_power=5|buff.holy_avenger.up&holy_power>=3
    actions.single+=/final_verdict,if=buff.divine_purpose.react&buff.divine_purpose.remains<3
    actions.single+=/crusader_strike,if=t18_class_trinket=1&buff.focus_of_vengeance.remains<gcd.max*2
    actions.single+=/hammer_of_wrath
    actions.single+=/exorcism,if=buff.blazing_contempt.up&holy_power<=2&buff.holy_avenger.down
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&buff.final_verdict.up&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=spell_targets.divine_storm=2&buff.final_verdict.up&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)
    actions.single+=/final_verdict,if=buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&spell_targets.divine_storm=2&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=holy_power=5&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*3)
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=holy_power=4&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*4)
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=holy_power=3&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*5)
    actions.single+=/judgment,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&seal.truth&buff.maraads_truth.remains<cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5
    actions.single+=/judgment,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&seal.righteousness&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5
    actions.single+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&buff.maraads_truth.remains<(cooldown.judgment.duration|buff.maraads_truth.down)&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&!buff.wings_of_liberty.up
    actions.single+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<cooldown.judgment.duration&buff.maraads_truth.remains>cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5&target.health.pct<35&!buff.wings_of_liberty.up&!buff.bloodlust.up
    actions.single+=/crusader_strike,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.single+=/crusader_strike,if=holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&target.health.pct>=35&buff.avenging_wrath.down)
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.single+=/exorcism,if=glyph.mass_exorcism.enabled&spell_targets.exorcism>=2&!glyph.double_jeopardy.enabled&!set_bonus.tier17_4pc=1
    actions.single+=/judgment,cycle_targets=1,if=last_judgment_target!=target&talent.seraphim.enabled&glyph.double_jeopardy.enabled
    actions.single+=/judgment,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.single+=/judgment,cycle_targets=1,if=last_judgment_target!=target&glyph.double_jeopardy.enabled&(holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=gcd*2&target.health.pct>35&buff.avenging_wrath.down))
    actions.single+=/judgment,if=holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=gcd*2&target.health.pct>35&buff.avenging_wrath.down)
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=spell_targets.divine_storm=2&holy_power>=4&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.single+=/final_verdict,if=buff.divine_purpose.react
    actions.single+=/final_verdict,if=holy_power>=4
    actions.single+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&buff.maraads_truth.remains<cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains>cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5
    actions.single+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5&buff.maraads_truth.remains>cooldown.judgment.duration*1.5&!buff.bloodlust.up
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&spell_targets.divine_storm=2&holy_power>=4&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=buff.divine_purpose.react
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=holy_power>=4&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*5)
    actions.single+=/exorcism,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.single+=/exorcism,if=holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&(cooldown.judgment.remains>=gcd*2&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=gcd*2&target.health.pct>35&buff.avenging_wrath.down))
    actions.single+=/divine_storm,if=spell_targets.divine_storm=2&holy_power>=3&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.single+=/final_verdict,if=holy_power>=3
    actions.single+=/templars_verdict,if=holy_power>=3&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*6)
    actions.single+=/holy_prism
    
    actions.cleave=final_verdict,if=buff.final_verdict.down&holy_power=5
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&holy_power=5&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power=5&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&holy_power=5&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power=5&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*4)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/hammer_of_wrath
    actions.cleave+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=t18_class_trinket=1&buff.focus_of_vengeance.remains<gcd.max*2
    actions.cleave+=/judgment,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&seal.righteousness&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<cooldown.judgment.duration
    actions.cleave+=/exorcism,if=buff.blazing_contempt.up&holy_power<=2&buff.holy_avenger.down
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&buff.final_verdict.up&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.final_verdict.up&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)
    actions.cleave+=/final_verdict,if=buff.final_verdict.down&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power=5&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*3)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power=4&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*4)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power=3&(buff.avenging_wrath.up|target.health.pct<35)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*5)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=spell_targets.hammer_of_the_righteous>=4&talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=spell_targets.hammer_of_the_righteous>=4&(holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&target.health.pct>=35&buff.avenging_wrath.down))
    actions.cleave+=/crusader_strike,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/crusader_strike,if=holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&target.health.pct>=35&buff.avenging_wrath.down)
    actions.cleave+=/exorcism,if=glyph.mass_exorcism.enabled&!set_bonus.tier17_4pc=1
    actions.cleave+=/judgment,cycle_targets=1,if=last_judgment_target!=target&talent.seraphim.enabled&glyph.double_jeopardy.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/judgment,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/judgment,cycle_targets=1,if=last_judgment_target!=target&glyph.double_jeopardy.enabled&(holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=gcd*2&target.health.pct>35&buff.avenging_wrath.down))
    actions.cleave+=/judgment,if=holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=gcd*2&target.health.pct>35&buff.avenging_wrath.down)
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_purpose.react&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power>=4&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.cleave+=/final_verdict,if=buff.divine_purpose.react&buff.final_verdict.down
    actions.cleave+=/final_verdict,if=holy_power>=4&buff.final_verdict.down
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=buff.divine_crusader.react&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power>=4&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*5)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/exorcism,if=talent.seraphim.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/exorcism,if=holy_power<=3|(holy_power=4&(cooldown.judgment.remains>=gcd*2&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=gcd*2&target.health.pct>35&buff.avenging_wrath.down))
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power>=3&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>gcd*6)&!talent.final_verdict.enabled
    actions.cleave+=/divine_storm,if=holy_power>=3&buff.final_verdict.up
    actions.cleave+=/final_verdict,if=holy_power>=3&buff.final_verdict.down
    actions.cleave+=/holy_prism,target=self




    Base Priority

    Priority
    (Highest)
    Abbreviation Ability Name Condition
    1 ES / LH Execution Sentence / Light's Hammer Cast on CD. ES single target, LH 2+ targets
    2 DP(-3) Divine Purpose If Divine Purpose has less than three seconds in duration
    3 TV5 Templar's Verdict cast @ 5 Holy Power
    4 HoW Hammer of Wrath Generates 1 holy Power.
    5 TV CD/Exec Templar's Verdict Cast if Avenging Wrath is up, or target below 35% HP
    6 CS Crusader Strike Generates 1 Holy Power.
    7 EDS CD/Exec Empowered Divine Storm Cast if Avenging Wrath is up, or target below 35%.
    8 J Judgment Generates 1 Holy Power.
    9 DP Divine Purpose Consumed w/ TV or DS when Divine Purpose is talented
    10 EDS Empowered Divine Storm Cast when available.
    11 TV4 Templar's Verdict Cast @ 4 Holy Power
    12 Exo Exorcism Generates 1 Holy Power.
    13
    (lowest)
    TV3 Templar's Verdict Cast @ 3 Holy Power

    Final Verdict Priority

    Priority
    (Highest)
    Abbreviation Ability Name Condition
    1 ES / LH Execution Sentence / Light's Hammer Cast on CD. ES single target, LH 2+ targets
    2 EDSFV^5 Empowered Divine Storm+Final Verdict Divine Crusader + Final Verdict buff up @ 5 Holy Power.
    3 DP(-3) Divine Purpose If Divine Purpose has less than three seconds in duration
    4 FV5 Final Verdict cast @ 5 Holy Power
    5 HoW Hammer of Wrath Generates 1 holy Power.
    6 EDSFV CD/Exec Empowered Divine Storm+Final Verdict Divine Crusader + Final Verdict buff up with AW up, or target below 35%
    7 FV CD/Exec Final Verdict cast if AW up, or target below 35%
    8 CS Crusader Strike Generates 1 Holy Power.
    9 J Judgment Generates 1 Holy Power.
    10 EDSFV^ Empowered Divine Storm+Final Verdict Divine Crusader + Final Verdict buff up
    11 DPFV Final Verdict Consumes Divine Purpose with Final Verdict
    12 FV4 Final Verdict Cast @ 4 Holy Power.
    13 Exo Exorcism Generates 1 Holy Power.
    14
    (lowest)
    FV3 Final Verdict Cast @ 3 Holy Power


    Seraphim priority

    Priority
    (Highest)
    Abbreviation Ability Name Condition
    1 ES / LH Execution Sentence / Light's Hammer Cast on CD. ES single target, LH 2+ targets
    2 Sera Seraphim Cast @ 5 Holy Power
    3 DP(-3) Divine Purpose If Divine Purpose has less than three seconds in duration
    4 Sera(-3) Empowered Divine Storm If Seraphim has less than three seconds left to it's cooldown.
    5 !TV5 Templar's Verdict Cast @ 5 Holy Power, but not if it would take longer to generate 3 Holy Power before Seraphim is ready. 4 GCD's or 6 seconds, with zero haste
    6 HoW Hammer of Wrath Generates 1 holy Power.
    7 TV CD/Exec Templar's Verdict Cast @ 3 or more Holy Power, but not if it would take longer to generate 3 to 5 Holy Power before Seraphim is ready. 4 to 6 GCD's or 6 to 9 seconds, with zero haste.
    8 CS Crusader Strike Generates 1 Holy Power.
    9 EDS CD/Exec Empowered Divine Storm Cast if Avenging Wrath is up, or target below 35%.
    10 J Judgment Generates 1 Holy Power.
    11 DPTV Templar's Verdict Cast when available.
    12 EDS Empowered Divine Storm Cast when available.
    13 !TV4 Templar's Verdict Cast @ 4 Holy Power, but not if it would take longer to generate 4 Holy Power before Seraphim is ready. 5 GCD's or 7.5 seconds, with zero haste.
    14 Exo Exorcism Generates 1 Holy Power.
    15
    (lowest)
    !TV3 Templar's Verdict Cast @ 3 Holy Power, but not if it would take longer to generate 5 Holy Power before Seraphim is ready. 6 GCD's or nine seconds, with zero haste.




    Level 100 Talents - These talents fill the 'choose how you play' role
    • Empowered Seals, like the late inquisition, focuses on buff monitoring. Highest single target output of level 100's three options.
    • Seraphim fills an alternating burst/pooling gameplay method, very useful for fight's with frequent downtime or burst DPS requirements.
    • Final Verdict has the best cleave output, focused on proc based game play. Good for hectic fights, movement, frequent target swaps, etc.

    Level 75 Talents - These talents provide a method of how you generate additional Holy Power.
    • Holy Avenger, The most versatile talent in the tier, provides stable single target output with good burst AoE capability.
    • Sanctified Wrath is oriented towards providing the highest single target DPS, with moderate cleave and AoE.
    • Divine Purpose, on its own is the superior cleave/AoE talent, lowest single target DPS of the three.


    Notes & Nuances
    Seals
    • Seal of truth should be utilized for single target, or, if two mobs are present for a duration longer than the max debuff time of censure (15 seconds). This means maintaining two Censure debuffs simultaneously.
    • Seal of Righteousness should be used when three or more targets are present, or when two targets will not be alive long enough to take advantage of a fully stacked censure for more than censures duration.
    • Seal of Righteousness - Empty Drinking Horn - When this trinket is equipped using Seal of Righteousness at two targets becomes more beneficial than maintaining two Censure debuffs.
    Cleave and AoE
    Final Verdict AoE
    • While using the Final Verdict Talent, once two or more targets are present, you will alternate finishers between Final Verdict & Divine Storm. Take note of the availability of the Final Verdict buff before using Divine Storm.

    General AoE
    • When two targets are present, EDS’s priority shifts significantly. You will now want to consume the buff as if it's placement were that of the Final Verdict rotation.
    • Once three Targets are present Templar’s Verdict is simply substituted with Divine Storm.
    • Once four targets are present, Crusader Strike is substituted with Hammer of the Righteous
    • Hammer of the Righteous - Empty Drinking Horn - Like Seal of Righteousness, the target threshold for using Hammer of the Righteous is reduced by one when this Trinket is equipped.

    Glyphs
    • When Glyphed into Mass Exorcism, and when three or more targets are present. Exorcism will displace Judgment in the priority. eg: The priority for generators would become: HoW > ExoBC > CS > Exo > J
    • When Glyphed into Double Jeopardy you will want to cycle between targets to increase judgment damage dealt, so long as you strike a different target, each Judgment will deal 20% more damage.

    Tier 18 Bonuses
    This time around, our Tier bonuses are pretty straight forward. These bonuses are focused on providing control and burst DPS.

    Paladin T18 Retribution 2P Bonus - Avenging Wrath now has 3 charges.
    Paladin T18 Retribution 4P Bonus - After using Avenging Wrath, your damage is increased by 5% every 1 sec for 10 sec.


    Using these bonuses is fairly straightforward, and revolves around the 2pc. The charge system allows for the ability to hold onto using AW without losing uses over the course of a fight (so long as at least one charge is available), no more using AW on cooldown! This means we can effectively 'pool' Avenging Wrath usage for more important phases or burst DPS requirements. This functionality pairs particularly well with the Seraphim talent, and is largely responsible for its greater viability this tier.


    Seraphim
    To use seraphim optimally you will need to pay close attention to both its duration and CD, typically a good point to start planning for usage is 10 seconds before the CD is ready. Optimal Seraphim usage often encourages doing nothing, waiting for generators and Seraphim to become available. The length of the pooling period before Seraphim’s activation/CD reset should be roughly three seconds (or two GCD’s), to ensure at least two generators are available upon activation. Should you find yourself in a situation where you have stopped your rotation to early in preparation for the activation of seraphim, eg: a wait longer equal to or greater than two GCD’s, you can use Divine Crusader or Exorcism, even if you’re at holy power cap. We want to cram as many abilities into that brief 15 second window as possible. For this reason Haste has a higher relative stat weight (up to a point) while utilizing Seraphim. Seraphim Is off of the GCD, so pop it, preferably <200ms before your opening generator. Always align seraphim with your CD’s, i.e. every fourth Seraphim cast.

    All pooling should be done before Seraphim is off cooldown, as pooling afterwards will cause a hefty DPS loss by pushing back your two minute CD’s (Avenging Wrath & Holy Avenger), as well as potential Seraphim usage loss over the course of a fight. As a general rule, when attempting to factor whether or not to use TV within the aforementioned 10 second prep window you should follow this rough outline, while simultaneously assuming average HP generation rate of 1 HP per 2 seconds, 1HP/GCD during execute:

    don’t cast TV if–

    1. holy power=5 & cooldown remains less than 4 GCD’s (6 seconds with zero haste)
    2. holy power=4 & cooldown remains less than 5 GCD’s (7.5 seconds with zero haste)
    3. holy power=3 & cooldown remains less than 6 GCD’s. (9 seconds with zero haste)


    A linear increase in pool time proportional to the level of current holy power, pretty straight forward. If the mob in question is sub 35% (execute) minus one GCD from that pool time as execute HP generation increases.

    Empowered Seals
    Like Seraphim, Empowered Seals is going to require greatly increased attention. What this talent entails is cycling through Seal of Truth/Seal of Righteousness to maintain the attack power multiplier and haste multiplier. If you are using bloodlust on the pull, stay in truth until BL expires.

    Here is a rough outline with handling the seal ‘twisting’ portion of the talent.

    • Twists from Seal of Truth to Seal of Righteousness Will need to be performed just above Crusader Strike in the base rotation, if Liadrins Righteousness is down, or, in place of Exorcism if Liadrins Righteousness is still active, but has less duration than the cooldown of judgment.
    • Twists from Seal of Righteousness to Seal of Truth will need to be performed just before CD’s or above Crusader Strike if Maraads truth is down (or less than three seconds remaining), or, like Righteousness in place of Exorcism with the same judgment condition logic.

    Note: the above logic isn’t 100% rigid, using some common sense when to twist will always be optimal regardless of current priority state. E.g. Out of range, CD’s becoming available, etc. Buff uptime priority is always Maraad’s Truth > Liadrin’s Righteousness.

    Due to the current damage value of our Seals, there is no inherent need to quickly jump back to Truth after swapping to Seal of Righteousness. The swap conditions to Truth are similar to Righteousness, however the buff provided is far more important. For this reason, Seal of Truth is the seal we will want to have active during CD’s. This also means we will NOT ‘seal-twist’ during cooldowns. If for whatever reason, You may not be able to refresh Maraad’s Truth before you hit judgment in your priority, you can prioritize Judgment ahead of Crusader Strike and below Hammer of Wrath to maintain it. Liadrin’s Righteousness expiring is far less important, in fact, it is often optimal to let the buff fall off before refreshes, this ensures full use of the haste buff is dedicated to your damage dealing and not seal cycling. Try to refresh Liadrin’s righteousness before cooldowns, preferably less than five seconds before they’re available. Then make the swap back to Truth if you’re using talents like HA or SW, even if said Judgment clashes with abilities like Crusader strike. Empowered Seals usage with Divine Purpose isn’t recommended except for fights with heavy AoE.


    Final Verdict
    Final Verdict is played similarly to T16 SoO ret, with the only added exceptions of noting the availability of the Final Verdict Buff before using Empowered Divine Storm. Once tier 17 bonuses are acquired this talent becomes far more complicated, largely in part to having one of the more important procs being tied melee swings and not rotation activation events, like Divine Purpose, Divine Crusader, or Crusader's fury. This has potential for Holy Power loss with the push back of Exorcism and Blazing Contempt if it is not consumed immediately. A swing timer mod is recommended for dealing with potential Exorcism proc (CD reset) wastage. The other talent specs suffer from this as well, however, the cost is far greater with FV due to the increased damage that Holy Power provides.

    Trinket Rankings


    Overall

    I have Libram of Vindication, Empty Drinking Horn, Unending Hunger and Discordant Chorus. Which trinket's should i use for which fights?

    # Boss Trinkets
    1 Hellfire Assault Empty Drinking Horn & Discordant Chorus
    2 Iron Reaver Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    3 Hellfire Council Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    4 Kormrok Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    5 Kilrogg Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    6 Gorefiend Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    7 Iskar Empty Drinking Horn & Unending Hunger or Libram of Vindication
    8 Socrethar Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    9 Fel-Lord Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    10 Xhul-Horac Empty Drinking Horn & Unending Hunger or Libram of Vindication
    11 Velhari Empty Drinking Horn & Libram of Vindication
    12 Mannoroth Empty Drinking Horn & Unending Hunger or Libram of Vindication
    13 Archimonde Empty Drinking Horn & Unending Hunger or Libram of Vindication





    Changelog:
    Spoiler: 
    Code:
    16/05/15
    -6.2 theorycraft thread is born
    
    15-27/06/15
    -Stat Weights updated
    -Trinket Rankings added
    -Trinket usage added
    -Simcraft cooldown actions updated - Spread out the usage of AW/HA, instead of front loading with bloodlust. DPS gain for longer sims. Gameplay unchanged.
    Last edited by Solsacra; 2015-11-18 at 07:31 AM.

  2. #2
    So with Empty Drinking Horn i was wondering how many stacks of Fel burn you guys got up to consistently before the duration fell off. I believe i was getting around 13-16 while playing around with it. However I did notice that i wasn't getting any extra stacks off of SoT and SoR. Hoping blizzard changes that not sure if they will. I could see the trinket being absurdly good it they did though.
    Last edited by Urioh; 2015-05-17 at 01:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maybach View Post
    Wheres mendenbarr when you need him ffs

  3. #3
    Thanks Solsacra

  4. #4
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urioh View Post
    So with Empty Drinking Horn i was wondering how many stacks of Fel burn you guys got up to consistently before the duration fell off. I believe i was getting around 13-16 while playing around with it. However I did notice that i wasn't getting any extra stacks off of SoT and SoR. Hoping blizzard changes that not sure if they will. I could see the trinket being absurdly good it they did though.
    With haste gear and EmpS I was maxing at 20, the trinket is really really underwhelming to say the least.
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  5. #5
    EDH may seem underwhelming, but it ultimately isn't performing substantially worse than either LoV or DC. Keep in mind EDH is currently bugged and not criting (it should be), so it may seem weaker for now. For practical purposes LoV is likely our worst trinket, thanks to the tight restrictions that are arbitrarily present.

  6. #6
    Any crazy ret make a versatility set for progression mode?

  7. #7
    Not sure how you would really benefit from that. Assuming you use all 6 pieces you wouldn't have a spot for even a 2 piece bonus, and the most you would end up with would be about 10% bonus damage and 5% damage reduction, and the loss of both set bonuses would have to far outweigh that 5% damage reduction

  8. #8
    Prob would get more benefit of downgrading a few items to lower ilvl pieces with avoidance than actively going for versatility. Sure, for top end progression you might argue that losing a little dps for a little bit of survivability if you aren't hitting the enrage could be useful, but I think there are better ways to do that than gearing for vers.
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  9. #9
    LoV will hopefully get a re-work. Still a lot of time for this to happen, a class trinket should feel REALLY strong. At least in my opinion.

    Don't get me wrong, it's pretty good. But I feel like blizzard just made this trinket and didn't think of how bad it would be in some of these encounters. Some of the encounters push this trinket so far to the side it's sad.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome ujx's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to the risk involved with EmpS vs FV. Real world scenarios where you have to swap to something across the room, soak something, or anything that would impair your ability to smoothly keep up both buffs. Trying to weigh the risk/reward factor for playing a talent that is simming ~1k higher than FV.

  11. #11
    I am so delighted we are going to be really bursty again. It's really what drew me to the spec in the first place, love that niche.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    It looks to me like with FV being so competitive in pure single-target situations, we'll be playing it for almost every fight in the instance. There's so much cleave, and Sera/EmpS just can't really compare to FV in that regard.

    I almost wish FV was significantly (to the tune of 4-5k DPS) behind Sera and EmpS on single-target, if only to make the choice of talent somewhat more involved.

  13. #13
    Warchief Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    It looks to me like with FV being so competitive in pure single-target situations, we'll be playing it for almost every fight in the instance. There's so much cleave, and Sera/EmpS just can't really compare to FV in that regard.

    I almost wish FV was significantly (to the tune of 4-5k DPS) behind Sera and EmpS on single-target, if only to make the choice of talent somewhat more involved.
    I've been using FV almost exclusively in the raid boss testing (both with current gear and T18 sets/trinkets) and have been fine on all the different fights. I am still going to expect that I may switch between the level 100 talents so that I am prepared for it, but real situations of having to chase bosses around as tanks move them from the fire makes FV a bit stronger than a sim may show.
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  14. #14
    The Patient Kanael's Avatar
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    Too bad we couldnt like threads =\ ty for the info Solsacra!
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    I'm happy to help to test paladin-related stuff. I have 6 Ret pallies.

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  15. #15
    Thanks again, Solsacra

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Lucivero's Avatar
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    Looking good, thanks for the new thread!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    I've been using FV almost exclusively in the raid boss testing (both with current gear and T18 sets/trinkets) and have been fine on all the different fights. I am still going to expect that I may switch between the level 100 talents so that I am prepared for it, but real situations of having to chase bosses around as tanks move them from the fire makes FV a bit stronger than a sim may show.
    yes, the difference in dps between all 3 final talents for pure single target makes it a moot point since there is only like 3-4 only single target fights in that instance and half of those fights being highly mobile fights as well. basically, you can look at it this way.

    FV is a pure dummy talent, you cannot mess it up no matter how hard you try.
    EMP seals requires you to know whne to switch on to your useless seal of which can ususally be timed at each point of your ability CDs and simply become a rotation. still requires work and no-how and can really screw you over if the boss is not in judge range or simple downtime via unhittable targets.
    and seraphim requires you to know the cooldown timer and insight every 30 seconds, if you dont know if you can fit in that extra TV or not and end up wasting even a second or two from seraphim's uptime every so often, the talent becomes shit.

    you have about 800 or so of a dps difference and the skill required between it is just so large its funny.

    we can also possibly ignore this fact as im almost 100% sure the fel cleave trinket will be nerfed for single target and both seraphim and EMP seals make this trinket better by giving you more haste (which is more procs) and makes you gear a bit more to haste via stat weights.

    so at the end of the day we might not even see a dps loss for using FV at all in single target if my assumptions are right. shit i expect that FV will be king for single again honestly.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ujx View Post
    I'm curious as to the risk involved with EmpS vs FV. Real world scenarios where you have to swap to something across the room, soak something, or anything that would impair your ability to smoothly keep up both buffs. Trying to weigh the risk/reward factor for playing a talent that is simming ~1k higher than FV.
    Well, realistically; downtime is better for both Seraphim and Empowered Seals. Final Verdict suffers the most. However, given that Final Verdict is the only talent that gives us reliable cleave in an instance with an over abundance of it, Final Verdict will probably still see the most use. Empowered Seals or Seraphim will be substantially stronger on fights like Iron Reaver, Kormrok, Gorefiend and Fel Lord. Empowered Seals AoE is just as good, if not better than FV's. Seraphim AoE just lags behind, for obvious reasons.
    Last edited by Solsacra; 2015-05-17 at 05:24 PM.

  19. #19
    Thanks for the time and effort Solsacra. Much appreciated.

  20. #20
    Great work

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