6.2 Retribution Theorycraft & Discussion

[MBDTF]

R I P RNG tier 17

[ujx]

R I P RNG tier 17

RIP our AoE

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

RIP ret in general?

[Deleted]

RIP ret in general?

Bollocks, I'll make it work like I always do. I'm sure others will do the same. I also don't think the trinkets are really done yet so also hold out hope for changes still to come in other regards as well.

[ujx]

Bollocks, I'll make it work like I always do. I'm sure others will do the same. I also don't think the trinkets are really done yet so also hold out hope for changes still to come in other regards as well.

It's going to take a lot. After seeing some of the disgusting numbers other classes are putting up on PTR, ret is going to need a lot of TLC. I thought for sure with double AW back to back and the Archimonde trinket that I would blow the doors off people on single target. I was wrong, and I don't even want to talk about AoE...

[Zabannith]

Bollocks, I'll make it work like I always do. I'm sure others will do the same. I also don't think the trinkets are really done yet so also hold out hope for changes still to come in other regards as well.

While you and many others, myself included will make it work, it still doesn't change the fact that we will be barely mediocre at best in the grand scheme of things.. sure we have utility .. but that's also our downfall when prot and holy bring the same and more utility respectively. Once again why bring a ret when you have a holy paladin or prot paladin, when you can bring another dps that just does anything ret does better.

Look at our class trinket compared to other classes it looks like it could range from okay to actually good.. however we have a drawback , look at the other class specific trinkets and classes that are much better off than ret have no drawbacks, yet one of the lowest simming, and parsing dps specs in the game has to jump through hoops to achieve less results? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, not to mention how we do in fact need to put more effort into playing to achieve lesser results still boggles my mind, Just look at our priority list compared to other classes and specs, its ridiculous in comparison, and we achieve much less, I was talking to a hunter friend the other day about our priority compared to theirs an he laughed at me and said "you have to do all that?, I don't have to put in near that much effort"

I've been playing ret since sunwell ,I've seen it's ups and downs, it's been a bumpy ride, I love my ret, she's my main, and I've a great attachment to the character,no other character of mine has the time investment or the emotional investment that I have devoted to the ret. I had great hopes for ret in the WoD beta until things got changed in live and other classes got buffed too much in my opinion,that being said, after so many years of the roller coaster ride that is ret the grass is honestly starting to look greener on the other side of the fence.

Personally I think that blizz should strip us of all our utility and leave that to holy, that's their job after all, heal and mitigate incoming damage and cure debuffs, Ret is suppose to be a damage dealer , not a spec going through an identity crisis, Imo strip us of our utility, make our self heals and self heals only (we should not be off healers) comparable with other pure dps classes, and give us the treatment that other well off dps specs get , as ret we should not be protecting or healing our allies, we should be punishing those who dare threaten or do harm to our allies, leave the heals to holy and leave the protecting of our allies to prot , blizzard needs to give us the flavour, respect and proper direction that ret truly deserves.

But these are just my 2 cents.

[Jekuto]

I will never accept Empowered Seals as the go-to talent. Sealtwisting was a thing of Wrath and needs to stay in Wrath.

However, I'm totally down with Seraphim or Final Verdict.

[Kelemar]

I just think that Seraphim would be way better off if it just required 5 Holy Power and only consumed 3 or something of the sort. The downtime after spending all your 5 Holy Power at once just feels so underwhelming, even if the benefit is of great value. It's something along the lines of Inquisition, though Inquisition was rather fun to play around when compared to the proc fest we have now.

Hopefully 6.2 will bring further tuning and give us our well deserved buffs. Maybe even make AoW a thing again with the 4p baseline? It's not like it hasn't happened before.

[Kanael]

Solsacra whats your stance on clcret btw? (Do you like it or dont care for it) 'cause going to ask if you can put a clcret rotation (or any other rotation-assist addon) strings instead of people (like me) who has to go to another thread for rotations...

[Reghame]

I will never accept Empowered Seals as the go-to talent. Sealtwisting was a thing of Wrath and needs to stay in Wrath.

However, I'm totally down with Seraphim or Final Verdict.

it was a BC mostly thing, in original you could too but ret did not really do any damage at all so it was not as important.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, realistically; downtime is better for both Seraphim and Empowered Seals. Final Verdict suffers the most. However, given that Final Verdict is the only talent that gives us reliable cleave in an instance with an over abundance of it, Final Verdict will probably still see the most use. Empowered Seals or Seraphim will be substantially stronger on fights like Iron Reaver, Kormrok, Gorefiend and Fel Lord. Empowered Seals AoE is just as good, if not better than FV's. Seraphim AoE just lags behind, for obvious reasons.

its all relative to when that downtime is. FV's downtime is all the same no matter what part of the fight it is. if you have downtime when you have seraphim rolling or could be rolling the spell sucks. and having a lot of downtime to have one or both of your empowered seals buffs to fall off is devastating as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Solsacra whats your stance on clcret btw? (Do you like it or dont care for it) 'cause going to ask if you can put a clcret rotation (or any other rotation-assist addon) strings instead of people (like me) who has to go to another thread for rotations...

i know its not me you asked but CLCret is just a guideline, it cant play the game for you but if you have problems tracking your timers/HP/coolies/w/e then its ok.

i dont personally use it but i have seen some people use it an improve dramatically compared to when not using it.

i would honestly use something like weakauras though if you really need one (dont use it either, just seems better) since it tracks things better than CLC

- - - Updated - - -

I just think that Seraphim would be way better off if it just required 5 Holy Power and only consumed 3 or something of the sort. The downtime after spending all your 5 Holy Power at once just feels so underwhelming, even if the benefit is of great value. It's something along the lines of Inquisition, though Inquisition was rather fun to play around when compared to the proc fest we have now.

Hopefully 6.2 will bring further tuning and give us our well deserved buffs. Maybe even make AoW a thing again with the 4p baseline? It's not like it hasn't happened before.

i honestly think the holypower thing does not work with us. we are a bursty class with more and more restrictions. we have been watered down due to all the conflicted abilities we now have and it feels like we dont really do any one thing.

[Kanael]

@Reghame

Can you share your WA strings? And idk have Sol put it in the 1st page with acknowledgements from you...

[Reghame]

@Reghame

Can you share your WA strings? And idk have Sol put it in the 1st page with acknowledgements from you...

i dont use WA or CLC, im just saying ive tried both and CLC just seems cleaner. im sure if you ask sol dakeshi or anyone else they might though sicne most guilds use CLC for raid mechanics anyhow.

BTW im not sure if anyone else has noticed this with the tier but if you do a pull and you wipe with both wings down, you gota wait 4 minutes before you can do damage since both charge independently and both dont reset after bosses.

- - - Updated - - -

sats are so terrible too, makes me cringe. 4 slots with haste what r they thinking? sure its a prot pally's wet dream to a certain point but for ret? you might be forcing us into EMP seals with those stats <.<

and ya arch trinket sucks balls, if your out of range for a second during wings theres a high chance with anything but the seraphim set up you might lose your damage buff since it is only 10 seconds and you dont wana be using CS every time its off CD. (for emp seals you gota refresh judge and FV you wana use emp DS if you can)

the duration is too low, the restrictions are too high. ill never use the damn thing since its just better for so many others and it has the possibility of being shit for us considering the actual gains of perfect use is only so little.

Cleave trinket is broken, its going to get nerfed.

Fel trinket seems underwhelming but might be ok? not sure yet
stacking str trinket would be good if it actually proced though, did a 10 minute test once and only got it to proc once, and it was outside of wings at that.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, fel cleave can be close to third top damage done if you go with EMP seals or seraphim. ya, its gona get nerfed ^.^

- - - Updated - - -

looks like multistrikes can proc both the fel trinket and the STr stacking trinket (should the STr stacking one proc..... lol) is this accounted for in your sims sol? might push the fel burn trinket higher when it gets fixed and can crit + that if you have not yet done it

- - - Updated - - -

multistrikes might also proc the cleave trinket too, not sure though

[Monoroth]

i dont use WA or CLC, im just saying ive tried both and CLC just seems cleaner. im sure if you ask sol dakeshi or anyone else they might though sicne most guilds use CLC for raid mechanics anyhow.

BTW im not sure if anyone else has noticed this with the tier but if you do a pull and you wipe with both wings down, you gota wait 4 minutes before you can do damage since both charge independently and both dont reset after bosses.

- - - Updated - - -

sats are so terrible too, makes me cringe. 4 slots with haste what r they thinking? sure its a prot pally's wet dream to a certain point but for ret? you might be forcing us into EMP seals with those stats <.<

and ya arch trinket sucks balls, if your out of range for a second during wings theres a high chance with anything but the seraphim set up you might lose your damage buff since it is only 10 seconds and you dont wana be using CS every time its off CD. (for emp seals you gota refresh judge and FV you wana use emp DS if you can)

the duration is too low, the restrictions are too high. ill never use the damn thing since its just better for so many others and it has the possibility of being shit for us considering the actual gains of perfect use is only so little.

Cleave trinket is broken, its going to get nerfed.

Fel trinket seems underwhelming but might be ok? not sure yet
stacking str trinket would be good if it actually proced though, did a 10 minute test once and only got it to proc once, and it was outside of wings at that.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, fel cleave can be close to third top damage done if you go with EMP seals or seraphim. ya, its gona get nerfed ^.^

When testing Archimonde each time after the wipe wings reseted both charges. What happedned to you must have been some bug. I can't imagine they'll give us same treatment as warlocks had up til 6.2 with Dark Soul. It would be stupid if they finaly fixed locks Dark SOul reset for 2 charges and then screw us over.

If we can focus one target and cleave of it Arch trinket is gonna be sweet, but how many tacts/guilds are gonna alove ret to fully ignore tacts so he can compete with other classes. If they don't wanna remove restriciton trinket has atleast they should let it proc of Judgement and not CS. It's nice that's CS is procing as it does more damage compared to Judge/Exo but if we have to go out of melee range for 10 sec+ bye bye trinket. If it was Judgement procing it would be better as we wouldn't depend on range so much but then they'll have to increase duration of the buff due to Judge CD.

Fel stacking trinkets seems to be procing like crazy for classes that can DW, 40 seems to be max stack count you can apply to target.

Fel cleave on other side if you face your char properly during ecounter you could get some crazy numbers out, 10-15% of total damage just by cleave trinket. I agree it's definitely gonna get nerfed.

I can only imagine how more horrible Arch trinket can get with EMP seals, use CS to keep trinket up and use Judge to keep EMP seals up. While playing with FV/SW you already fill your GCDs pretty neat in first three mins where you barely use Judge/Exo due to having AW with 50% uptime (2p T18) + EDS procs.

If stacking trinkets gets better and procs at pull, we could delay our wings by 10 sec at pull and use it when stacking trinket has 10 stacks, at 20th stack we'll also have 50% damage increase from 4p and ES hiting at that point should be gigantic 2nd charge of wings could be lined up/delayed until next trinekt proc to benefit from strg stack and 4p at the same time. It could offer a very huge burst in first 2 mins of the fight, after 2min it's gonna depend on rng. (Hello Jikuns trinket and 1 mil ES crits?)

[-Rufio-]

new thread awesome OP.

[Reghame]

the arch trinket just has to many problems in the fact that #1, we dont use CS every time its off CD. sometimes we just cant. this aspect alone makes the trinket sketchy at the very beginning, then having it be target restricted makes it worse.

then you also have to factor in the push on empowered seals and sanctified wrath. both of these talents can force situations where CS's use can be greatly delayed in soem scenarios and it becomes an issue of well shit, i gota use this bad ability so i dont lose this good buff... but it goes against everything i like! wat do!

btw we are severely lacking in power compared to other classes i have tested. sure it might be because trinket balance is not done yet and our 4 piece is not working, but the difference in damage is quite staggering. im not gona say we should ask for buffs right now, but we might need to consider this once they fix our tier at the least.

[cremor]

If Solsacra adds addon recommendations to the first post it should be Hekili instead of clcret/clcinfo: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ution-Paladins!

Quoting myself:

You don't need to be a theorycrafter to use Hekili. In fact it's even easier to use than clcret/clcinfo because the "perfect" priority list is already there by default and working for every available talent combination.

I've recently switched from clcinfo to Hekili. I've done extensive testing and comparisons and Hekili is in every way better. During my testing I even found a quite big bug in clcret/clcinfo that results in finishers shown too often and therefore lower than optimal DPS.

Just make sure that you install the latest beta version of Hekili. Currently available release versions are not updating the display as fast as they should, resulting in a weird and laggy feeling.

Configuring Hekili to look like clcret is easy, just disable the AoE display, reduce the number of shown upcoming ability icons of the main display to 1 and increase the size of the main ability icon.

[sexybeast]

If Solsacra adds addon recommendations to the first post it should be Hekili instead of clcret/clcinfo: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ution-Paladins!

Quoting myself:

He does, on his summonstone guide he links on page 1

[Xs]

I don't know why you have to go to another thread, the whole point of CLCRet is that its simple enough to write down from other acronyms of the rotation.

[Kanael]

I don't know why you have to go to another thread, the whole point of CLCRet is that its simple enough to write down from other acronyms of the rotation.

Solsacra and the author of the clcret addon sometimes use different notations for the same ability-modifier.

[templarkhaz]

@Reghame

Can you share your WA strings? And idk have Sol put it in the 1st page with acknowledgements from you...

Ovale spell Priority. it has a direct simcraft APL and shoes a second one for AOE/cleave. tis very nice and clean