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  1. #1
    Fluffy Kitten Krekko's Avatar
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    [PROT] Fix my Tanking!

    Fix my Tanking!

    What this thread for:

    • To help people who have put forth the effort into learning their class/spec and want to see how and where they may be going wrong when not getting the numbers you want. If you cant, on your own, figure out what more needs to be done, and want some "expert" opinions this is the place is for you!
    • Players with experience will be here to help you and explain what's going wrong and where. This is not to flame or make fun of people, if you do that "You're gonna have a bad time".
    • To learn and see, by example, where other Paladins have been falling short, and to use this information and help you further!


    Before you post!:

    Go over the stickied threads and other resources!
    [MOP] Protection Paladin Guide
    Sacred Duty: A Protection Paladin Blog
    MainTankadin

    And other resources your fellow posters have put effort into providing you!


    How to post:


    This is a big part in helping you out. The more (relevant) information you give us, the better we will be able to serve you! This includes:
    • Your Armory
    • World of Logs or any other parses you have from the fights.
    • Your spec/glyphs for each individual fight you post questions for IF different than what's on your armory. You can use WoWhead's talent calculator for this!
    • Any information on why you think you might be having a problem. Highlight your rotation, CD usage, and any other information you think will help it. The more details and the more specific you are, the better!

    Once you have all that information compiled, fill this out with any


    HTML Code:
    [B]Armory Link:[/B]
    [B]Alternate Specs/Glyphs:[/B]
    [B]Worldoflogs Link:[/B]
    [B]Questions, concerns, expectations:[/B]
    [B]Description of Playstyle:[/B]


    Anything outside of what's there feel free to post in a freeform style below that. PLEASE use the template though for sake of ease.


    What not to post:

    • Logs bragging about how awesome you are. These will be removed. This is to help people, not flex your epeen. Want to show off? Show off with how smart you are and help others out!
    • Flaming, and hate. This will NOT be tolerated in any form. You're here to help people, not degrade people. If you flame and hate on people though, "You're gonna have a bad time"
    • Questions about HOW to gear, HOW to spec, HOW to reforge. Utilize the other tools on the forum to figure out the answers to these questions. If you can't find it, feel free to post in the utility threads and ask!

    IF YOU ARE RESPONDING!

    Make sure to address the person by name when you post! This will help prevent confusion and any mixups that might be had.

    Be polite! Don't degrade, flame, or attack people.

    Make your posts clear and concise! Go point by point rather than rambling away!


    Finally:

    If you're not posting for yourself, make sure you have the person's permission to post their armory and links. Nothing is worse than "that awkward moment" when you find your own armory on here. If you're posting on behalf of someone else, remember this is a public forum and they can see what you say. Don't let it bite you in the ass.


    All threads which fit into this type will be merged into here from now on, and this will remain a "timeless" thread.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

    WoW Level Scaling Feature

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Tyriama's Avatar
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    Firing this thread off, before it's buried in pages.

    Armory Link:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r%C3%B3/simple
    Comment about gear: I DO play Retribution mainly currently as we have two tanks that are not too keen on playing DPS. I have however managed to gather a few items that are purely tank, and I feel it holds it own for the content I'm trying to do, considering the stat priorities aren't that different.

    Alternate Specs/Glyphs:
    Trying out Seraphim + Holy Avenger on many fights to see how it works, but a lot of the time healers complain I become too spiky.

    Worldoflogs Link:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken Imperator HC. (Also contains several attempts.)
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken Kargath Mythic (Also contains several attempts.)
    I can also provide other logs of other fights if you want, but these are the "hardest" fights right now and those I struggle the most with staying alive.
    Feel free to look through the attempts and spot any mistakes.

    Questions, concerns, expectations:
    My main concern right now is that I take a lot of damage on many attempts compared to our other tanks (the druid is a feral, just in bear spec, and takes identical damage.) I really do want to play with Seraphim (and also Holy Avenger from time to time.) but whenever I do the healers complain an awful lot that I become spiky.

    Description of Playstyle:
    I play quite conservatively when it comes to cooldowns. I do try to not use them without reason (might explain some of the higher damage taken, but not the random deaths from "normal" tank damage.). Otherwise I do just try to maximise holy power generation to get SoTR uptime. (Hence why I often gravitate towards Sanctified Wrath for reliable HP)



    I do really hope someone can enlighten me a bit, if this is just normal and I have to tell healers to stop slacking, or if I'm completely mistaken on a crucial point.
    For reference, the other two tanks are a DK and a monk. Both very experienced players. (For the comparison argument of healers.)

  3. #3
    First off ouch.. stam flask. No bueno.

    With regards to healers claiming you're spiking in damage are you making sure to have DP up to cover the lack of SotR uptime you're going to have when not having HA available? Just overall I notice that for Mar'gok you only have 7 casts of DP throughout an 11 minute fight which seems really low especially given with the amount of damage going out constantly in that fight.

    Keep in mind that Seraphim is only better than Holy Shield if you can maximize its use and use it with 100% confidence. If you struggle at all with making sure you have everything lined up properly before you use it you're going to suffer a bit on both sides. I too play a bit conservative with some of my other cooldowns but DP is such a short cooldown you should be using it as often as you can especially if you're spiking.

    I'll have more time to look through these logs later tonight but hopefully this helps out a little bit!
    Last edited by Kazuchika; 2014-12-29 at 11:05 PM.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Tyriama's Avatar
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    Hi, and thanks.

    DP I do try to "save" in a way for when I taunt Imperator as he'll have high stacks and is guaranteed to hit me almost twice immediately, so the uptime might be a bit bad from that. (I don't know if I do this all the time though, so I'm probably missing a few.)
    I might be playing way to conservatively when it comes to CD's.


    No stam flask? Should I just stick to Str flasks? I hoped the extra health would help me squish up a bit more damage.


    Regarding Seraphim: I do have pretty good awareness of how long it will take me to get to 5HP from whatever point I am, so when I should start pooling, but during progress I won't be that confident. I do notice that I might be a bit more RNG based with Holy Shield. A few attempts I squished extremely quickly as I just didn't block at all.

  5. #5
    Posting for someone else, looking at our OT. We're both kinda baffled. On paper, his talents and how he gears seems right; however, his DPS is rather low and he often falls over just to boss melee.
    Armory is: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Leogun/simple (Though he is probably in Ret gear)

    Here are some logs:

    H Butcher
    H Brackenspore
    H Mar'gok

    I'm just wondering if he's doing something fundamentally wrong. I'd assume CD usage is a problem, but I don't play a Prot Pally so I don't know what I can say to help. Thanks a ton.

  6. #6
    When I saw he died 2x on Brackenspore I immediately knew how he was dying. Brackenspore's breath means that he cannot receive healing for its duration. He needs to go in there with full HP up and an additional CD if possible (DP should be glyphed IMO for this) so that he can maintain SotR.

    His peripherals are poor. He needs a high Sacred Shield uptime and his falls off too frequently (e.g. 75% on Tectus, 57% on Moragh). As he does not use Seraphim, he is not using resources to compete with SotR, so his SotR should be considerably higher than what he has. His CPM seems a little on the low side once things go haywire; on Butcher he keeps up OK but on say Tectus he plummets.

    I wouldn't say he's playing terribly however. You people do need to heal him. On say the 9th Imperator wipe, he went about 30s without being healed to full. Once he took the boss he received hardly any heals whatsoever except some half assed Riptide and some meaningless ticks. Somehow the disc priest didn't heal him at all in that span.
    Last edited by trystero; 2014-12-30 at 05:36 AM.

  7. #7
    Yeah, we were down 2 main healers that night and we brought in some other people that weren't quite up to par. As we went later into the night, our OT wasn't the issue anymore, it was lack of heals and DPS standing in stuff.

    The only other question I have is his DPS. He usually ranks really low in DPS percentile. Any tips there?

    Thanks again!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MagmyGeraith View Post
    Yeah, we were down 2 main healers that night and we brought in some other people that weren't quite up to par. As we went later into the night, our OT wasn't the issue anymore, it was lack of heals and DPS standing in stuff.

    The only other question I have is his DPS. He usually ranks really low in DPS percentile. Any tips there?

    Thanks again!
    If he's not using sera he will find it hard to rank high, sera is the best in terms of dps and will be needed for logging well. Holy prism is also weak. Execution sentence for single target and Lights hammer for 2+ targets.

    Don't forget as well in terms of logs loads of people are still doing full HC clears for the loot before going into the mythic bosses so we are also going all out for ranks (it's a silly system to be honest) and using SoT/SoR fight dependent rather then the "safer" SoI he is prob running with (I'm on my phone so can't really go into the logs massively and most of what I'm saying is from his armoury page)
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  9. #9
    Yeah Seraphim is the stronger talent all around. I think HS is fine, and honestly it's what I use on progression when I don't feel my healers can keep me alive (Seraphim makes you more reliant on healers imo, whereas HS gives you more flexibility to make smart situational decisions with HP and your AM). So his damage is naturally going to be lower, as the sexybeast explains.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kektonic View Post
    First off ouch.. stam flask. No bueno.
    I'm also a little confused by this comment.

    I thought the choice between a str and stam flask would be a decision you made based upon how you felt about your health pool and how hard the boss is hitting you. I didn't think it was a cut and shut pick of strength over stam, would love to be enlightened further?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fooicus View Post
    I'm also a little confused by this comment.

    I thought the choice between a str and stam flask would be a decision you made based upon how you felt about your health pool and how hard the boss is hitting you. I didn't think it was a cut and shut pick of strength over stam, would love to be enlightened further?
    I change my flask on the fight. For example, when I do Mythic Brackenspore I always always have a stamina flask cause paladin HP pool is relatively low anyway and you need as much as you can get when tanking that add or being breathed on. Its not as cut and dry as Str>Stamina as he would have you believe, especially during hard hitting progression bosses

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Wymarc is correct - flasks are situational as of right now. I'd generally gravitate towards the strength flask on every fight bar Mythic Brackenspore and perhaps Mythic Impregnator, although my opinion on the latter is somewhat shakier as I have yet to pull him.

  13. #13
    This has been debated countless times and Solaire made a few really good posts in the sticky regarding it rather than wasting time explaining it:

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I'm honestly unsure as to why you would ever be using stam flasks when str flasks are almost equal in terms of damage smoothing and kiloparsecs (so as not to use the tired, cliche, and worst of all inaccurate expression "light years" to convey notions of intergalactically large distances) ahead in terms of DPS. I don't think I'd let my own co-tank suit up for Mythic with a stam flask unless he was 620 iLvl or something.

    Seriously, guys - strength is a really fucking good stat in WoD. Friends don't let friends use stam flasks.
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I think you're stuck in the old mindset from MoP where raw AP had negligible survival benefits. If you check out the TMI by stat chart on Theck's website, Strength is weighted significantly higher than every secondary and is almost on par with stamina, on top of being our best stat for DPS. It is so much better than it has been in the past that it isn't even funny.

    There is no way I would ever use a stam flask for Mythic progression unless I was dying in 3 or fewer melee hits.
    Edit: Well shit I took too long making this post and he beat me to it

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Tyriama's Avatar
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    Well, given the lack of yelling at horrible CD usage outside of somewhat low DP usage, I take it I'm not doing something completely wrong, and might just have had some bad RNG.

    I know my gear is still a bit hit and miss. Quite a bit of haste present which I don't find AS useful as Mastery/Crit might've been.
    Thank you for the replies and clarification on the flask matter.

  15. #15
    Aye, thanks for clearing up on the whole flask issue. Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the mop prot thread I wrongly assumed it was outdated (well rightly in the case of the top post I guess), only recently returned to Paladin since spending an xpac playing shaman then DK

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyriama View Post
    Well, given the lack of yelling at horrible CD usage outside of somewhat low DP usage, I take it I'm not doing something completely wrong, and might just have had some bad RNG.

    I know my gear is still a bit hit and miss. Quite a bit of haste present which I don't find AS useful as Mastery/Crit might've been.
    Thank you for the replies and clarification on the flask matter.
    Haste still sims very well with sera due to the decrease in time it takes to get your 5 HoPo and your subsequent SotRs up. It's also good for dps output but really tanks your survivability.
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  17. #17
    Field Marshal Tyriama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
    Haste still sims very well with sera due to the decrease in time it takes to get your 5 HoPo and your subsequent SotRs up. It's also good for dps output but really tanks your survivability.
    The survivability is currently my biggest issue. DPS is, and will always be, a secondary concern. Gonna keep working on some gearing, picked up Botani Shoulders today for a fairly cheap price. Thanks everyone.

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyriama View Post
    The survivability is currently my biggest issue. DPS is, and will always be, a secondary concern. Gonna keep working on some gearing, picked up Botani Shoulders today for a fairly cheap price. Thanks everyone.
    Bolding mine: I see this sentiment a lot, and it's one I'd like to decry in public. Don't take it as a shot at you personally, Tyriama, because in no way is it meant to be - it's a shot at a troubling and deeply ingrained attitude in the tanking community.

    As a tank, claiming that survivability is your primary concern and that you can thus more or less ignore concerns of how much DPS you're doing is a cop-out; for two reasons. First of all, tuning of fights has changed enough through MoP and into WoD that tanks are expected to do proper damage. Secondly, if you are mitigating damage properly, you will also be doing excellent damage. If you are doing awful damage, you most likely are simultaneously failing fundamentally at the things you should be doing to mitigate damage.

    I see people getting carried through Mythic doing 13k DPS with 30% Seraphim uptime, and it makes me crey errytiem. Your job as a tank is to do everything you can to push your raid towards success, and quite frankly "DPS isn't my responsibility" is just a bum attitude that needs changing. Does this mean you need to use only DPS glyphs for every fight and completely ignore TMI statweights and gear for maximum DPS? No.

    Does it mean that you need to reconsider your play if the top players are outperforming you by 100% or more at the same iLvl? YES. GOD YES.

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Alihu's Avatar
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    So, while nobody in my guild has complained about my tanking yet, I still get the feeling there is something I can improve on or fix with my tanking. If anyone could help me with advice or whatnot, here are my logs https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=8&type=auras. Atm with the holiday season its been hard to get my guild back in heroic so we just do normal for the time being.
    "God Gave us a pinky so we can sprint and crouch."

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Alihu View Post
    So, while nobody in my guild has complained about my tanking yet, I still get the feeling there is something I can improve on or fix with my tanking. If anyone could help me with advice or whatnot, here are my logs https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=8&type=auras. Atm with the holiday season its been hard to get my guild back in heroic so we just do normal for the time being.
    I'm a ret so far in this expansion (was prot for cata and mists) so take this with a sizable grain of salt...

    Only looked at the butcher fight, as its as close to a tank and spank as there is. Seraphim uptime goals are >40%, so that could be improved a tad. It also seems that you may be able to prioritize HW a bit more - it was hitting hard.

    My biggest head scratcher though - seems like no use of Divine Protection at all. Especially during Sera downtime it should be used.

    Miles ahead of your co-tank though - so no one in your guild is going to complain

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