Why AV was fun and Ashran isn't

[ellieg]

AV was boring as shit

Ashran is equally as boring

Time and time again, large scale pvp pops up and the player base almost universally tells it to fuck off.

AV, hated by the masses
WPVP, hated by the masses
WG, hated by the masses
IOC, hated by the masses
TB, hated by the masses
SS vs TM hated by the masses
Ashran, probably the biggest waste of resources since the 1-60 revamp, again, hated by the masses.

We ask for 1v1 balance and are told to look to 3v3
We ask for 2v2 balance and are told to look to 3v3
We ask for 5v5 balance and are told to look to 3v3
We ask for 10v10 balance and are told to look to 3v3
We ask for 15v15 balance and are told to look to 3v3

So we're told they focus on 3v3 balance, yet continue to pump out desperately boring 40 man - 100 man zones. It isn't even something that is easy to do, like destroying a raid so that its suitable for LFRetards, this is from the ground up, an entire zone designed to suck all fun from within 2,000 yard radius of it. You can bet your ass that because of Ashran we didn't get one or two of the following: A new bg, a new arena, tanaan jungle, actual capital cities, not little camps on the edge of an island in nobodygivesafuck-ville.

Fuck these stupid 'WPVP' zones.

you sound upset. those are just your opinions. Everyone ive talked to liked AV, WG, and TB.

[Deleted]

you sound upset. those are just your opinions. Everyone ive talked to liked AV, WG, and TB.

People generally remember only the good memories and filter out the bad ones, that's how our brain works to keep us motivated and from getting depressed. I believe it's a phenomenon called nostalgia and it completely blinds most of the people because we tend to be stubborn fucks. Then there are the plain liars who bitch and moan how good the game used to be even though they didn't even play it - just because they watched a youtube montage, read one convincing comment and decided it's their opinion now. You'd be surprised how often this happens

I played through WotLK, nobody* liked WG. I played through Cataclysm, nobody liked TB. AV I can agree with

*read: there are always few, just like few like Ashran right now. But it was universally viewed bad

[ellieg]

People generally remember only the good memories and filter out the bad ones, that's how our brain works to keep us motivated and from getting depressed. I believe it's a phenomenon called nostalgia and it completely blinds most of the people because we tend to be stubborn fucks. Then there are the plain liars who bitch and moan how good the game used to be even though they didn't even play it - just because they watched a youtube montage, read one convincing comment and decided it's their opinion now. You'd be surprised how often this happens

I played through WotLK, nobody* liked WG. I played through Cataclysm, nobody liked TB. AV I can agree with

*read: there are always few, just like few like Ashran right now. But it was universally viewed bad

I know what I remember. They were frustrating at times and I remember those bad times. But overall they were fun. TB could get frustrating as hell cause it was just musical chairs but it was fun running into an area, not knowing how many people would be defending it, and using at least some minimal amount of strategy to win. It may have been different on different servers depending on how each faction did, but on mine, they were all fairly balanced.

[Deleted]

I know what I remember. They were frustrating at times and I remember those bad times. But overall they were fun. TB could get frustrating as hell cause it was just musical chairs but it was fun running into an area, not knowing how many people would be defending it, and using at least some minimal amount of strategy to win. It may have been different on different servers depending on how each faction did, but on mine, they were all fairly balanced.

They felt like a drag and people wanted them over with as quickly as possible. The great majority never looked forward to them, that's the main point. Yes you could enjoy a random match every now and then if you enjoyed the game, since there's gameplay. Obviously you can, I loved sniping off people who wandered away from the masses. That has nothing to do with the zone itself though, and it certainly doesn't mean the design of the zone was good. You can have an empty square room as a BG and people would eventually have fond memories of it. It would still be an objectively shitty BG

What do you think made WG and TB so good? I'm legit curious, because all the good memories about those places I have have absolutely nothing to do with the zone itself or how it's meant to be played

[ellieg]

What do you think made WG and TB so good? I'm legit curious, because all the good memories about those places I have have absolutely nothing to do with the zone itself or how it's meant to be played

I liked being able to destroy towers to change how much time was left, this led people away from a mass zerg in the middle. The workshops were good for this purpose too. you could get on turrets to counter demos and siege engines. enough people were running to these other areas that you could 5v5 or similar. there were points to defend. When you were in the zerg, it wasnt 150 vs 150 so it felt like you actually contributed to it.

[Deleted]

My problem is ashran is it feels more pve than pvp. All the stuffs are being done by NPCs. Even if few people are fighting guards can come and tip off the balance. And feels too gimmicky with all the buffs, sigil and ancient artifact. Also the fact that lot of NPCs can one shot you. I think they should get rid off all the guards in the road of glory and reduce rest of the NPCs health and damage by 50% then it might feel like PvP.

[Deleted]

Ashran is basically a pve zone now on my server, horde have given up on ever winning so they all just run the side events while we win the main even for free (<6-7 mins usually), its funny cause its like av today people just run to the objectives ignore fighting altogether so we can get our conquest aaap and get out.

Im pretty sure ive died more to pve mobs in ashran that in pvp, the guards and NPC ruin any small pvp there is whereas in AV the pve mobs were just used to break a defence chokepint then they usually died.
Also the numbers were small enough to were melee could actually survive as opposed to ashran where you just get gripped and instakilled.
It also does help that there is no information anywhere, everyday i see people asking what they need to do or what the point of ashran is theres a big difference between letting players explore and just chucking them into a big zone with zero information.

Akso AV was fun because you played it when you felt like it, the people who were in there WANTED to be there as opposed to trashran where it feels everyone has a gun to there head and its just full of complaints because they tied it to conquest/rep.

[PuppetShowJustice]

you sound upset. those are just your opinions. Everyone ive talked to liked AV, WG, and TB.

People liked TB? Who?

[Deleted]

Definitely agree about Ashran having more of a PvE feel over it than a PvE.

[Deleted]

People liked TB? Who?

Us protection warriors with 6second AE spellreflect spam

[Dispirit]

People liked TB? Who?

I loved Tol'barad.

I'd enjoy Ashran more if there were more objectives like capturing points or something that rogues could do and feel useful. At the moment rogues are pretty much useless in there.

[Sliske]

you sound upset. those are just your opinions. Everyone ive talked to liked AV, WG, and TB.

How do i sound upset? Because i use swear words? Thats how i talk generally. Also thank you for letting me know that my opinions are my opinions.

We're posting on a forum.

- - - Updated - - -

I loved Tol'barad.

I'd enjoy Ashran more if there were more objectives like capturing points or something that rogues could do and feel useful. At the moment rogues are pretty much useless in there.

Tol'Barad daily isle or TB pvp zone? The daily isle was fun to gank on, the PVP zone itself was a complete aids fest, as is every other instance of large scale pvp for every melee class in the game.

[AeneasBK]

Tol'Barad daily isle or TB pvp zone? The daily isle was fun to gank on, the PVP zone itself was a complete aids fest, as is every other instance of large scale pvp for every melee class in the game.

Again with the opinions.

I enjoyed WG, I enjoyed TB, and I'm loving Ashran. (Not directed at you: ) It always confuses me that so-called "determined" PVPers moan about it being a mindless AoE zerg, when the things you have to do to set up a win are all off the main path. Sure, in recent days I'm seeing much more action outside the main road. Which in turn makes being off the main road much more fun

But yeah, if you don't like mindless AoE zerg fests, don't participate, go do all the other things on the island that help your team win, from just collecting fragments for boss summoning, to getting the buff items to stampede/frostwyrm/jail w/e the enemy team when making a push.

Been in plenty of Ashran wins since it launched; and can count on one hand of the many wins I've witnessed the ones that didn't come with big buffs to break the stalemate. And most of the fun PvP is, like you say, not in the big "aids" AoE spamfest. But it is pretty glorious when you break the stalemate and where people were turning and running back to get healed up, they find themselves turning and getting wrecked because the healers are running too...

I play melee too, although will admit bubble/sprint helps keep me alive, other classes don't have that so much.

[Deleted]

I think one of the major issues Ashran faces, is the fact that the side objectives don't really play into actually determining the battle - more so then a select few of them do - And even then, You are doing that content against the environment.

Av was PvP centric in it's objectives, in that you had to take towers, which was contested by players ; not guards nor PvE. The only PvE part was killing the last boss - but that was gated behind the fact of getting towers.

Even more so, even summoning the great boss in AV was done through PvP action - And only slight tendencies of PvE.

But it's the only logical conclusion of having something be so simplistic and having "optional" PvE things scattered - they get mainly ignored, and thus, you see two streams of people smashing into each other.

Which, to be fair, AV was never about.

Av was about controlling objectives and trying to force the tide of the battle by getting some permanent objectives(Towers, bunkers, etc.) and other temporary objectives (Summon dude, GY's, or even Captain buff).

The only time you would see two streams of people smash into each other in AV, was when there was major chokepoints. And one could argue, that thoose are a flaw of design - one way or the other.

Ashran really doesn't encapsulate that very well. It's more of a mixed bag of ideas of "This sounds fun" - But it's not exactly involving the mass of players, if there is no real dedication of obejctives to get nor direction of stratergy.

[Psilar]

I do not like Ashran.

-The slow capping bases
-The lack of side objective
-The worthlessness of the bonus objectives (honor and 620 pvp gear means nothing to me)
-The size of the BG is way too many people and causes lag and computer issues.
-The lack of defined objectives on the map
-Too many on use effects that creates a key-binding nightmare

I would say Tol Barad, WG, and AV are all superior to Ashran.

[NuLogic]

Maybe add some side bases that buff people on the road of glory depending on how many are standing in each base. Idk anything to lessen the huge clusterfuck.

[Tya]

People forget that AV was hated. A 3 day slugfest sounds appealing at first, until you realise that literally nothing happens.

Ashran is better than vanilla AV in every single way.

[Sliske]

Again with the opinions.

I enjoyed WG, I enjoyed TB, and I'm loving Ashran. (Not directed at you: ) It always confuses me that so-called "determined" PVPers moan about it being a mindless AoE zerg, when the things you have to do to set up a win are all off the main path. Sure, in recent days I'm seeing much more action outside the main road. Which in turn makes being off the main road much more fun

But yeah, if you don't like mindless AoE zerg fests, don't participate, go do all the other things on the island that help your team win, from just collecting fragments for boss summoning, to getting the buff items to stampede/frostwyrm/jail w/e the enemy team when making a push.

Been in plenty of Ashran wins since it launched; and can count on one hand of the many wins I've witnessed the ones that didn't come with big buffs to break the stalemate. And most of the fun PvP is, like you say, not in the big "aids" AoE spamfest. But it is pretty glorious when you break the stalemate and where people were turning and running back to get healed up, they find themselves turning and getting wrecked because the healers are running too...

I play melee too, although will admit bubble/sprint helps keep me alive, other classes don't have that so much.

Of course its an opinion. This is the second time in this thread that I have had to point out that fact. Do people actually try to say something is objectively fun? Not that I have seen. Everything is an opinion unless its subjective.

[Sparklebeard]

Ill preface this with that I respect the opinion of those who don't like Ashran. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and there have been valid reasons put forth as to why people don't like it.

So I really like Ashran. I'm fortunate to be on a reasonably balanced server group, I see horde groups pushing to Stormshield roughly as often as I see Alliance groups pushing to Warspear, so I'm sure this strongly influences my opinion. I like that fact that when the middle lane gets boring I can go to the sides and farm fragments and stock up on captain's whistles, summon Fangraal, or whatever. I also enjoy mob farming in general though, so this isn't surprising. I like that I can group up with a couple of people and go kill the horde's warlock gate, try to find the artifact, or just go ruin the day of people on the other faction who are farming mobs.

I think we could stand to see some more nodes to hold off the side which give a benefit to the faction mapwide, maybe a bonus to fragment drops, or even a dmg/healing buff for whichever faction holds X nodes off the side?

[Deleted]

People forget that AV was hated. A 3 day slugfest sounds appealing at first, until you realise that literally nothing happens.

Ashran is better than vanilla AV in every single way.

AV was hated by the gear grinding morons who wanted the pointless zergfest it turned into so they could stop playing pvp faster,
or run premades with their friends with no need to actually learn how to play.

People who actually like pvp generally speaking loved it. If you ever raise the issue in a bg you get nothing but wistful nostalgia.