simming shows cma>scales?

**Theelol** · 2014-12-18, 03:41 PM

so i got both trinkets on hc now, and i use dlsc in 1st slot, simming scales gives me 24773.6 dps, while cma 25883.9, how? i mean, scales is obly better

**Enitzu** · 2014-12-18, 04:09 PM

Depends on the spec. LDSC/SoD is MMs BiS iirc. SoD/CMA I think is better for SV

**Theelol** · 2014-12-18, 04:13 PM

simmed while in MM spec

**Effinhunter** · 2014-12-18, 04:25 PM

Armory link for you? Simcraft profile for what you are doing? Also, just to be clear are you simming CMA with Scales or are you simming LDSC with scales vs LDSC with CMA?

Because in my sims (either with napkin math from the spreadsheet or with Simcraft itself), CMA and Scales appear to be BiS for both specs. both of them have been buffed significantly while LDSC is still the same stat level.

Trinket listing MM: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...-60/?p=2276647
Spreadsheet (napkin math): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=208702416

**Azortharion** · 2014-12-18, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Effinhunter

Armory link for you? Simcraft profile for what you are doing? Also, just to be clear are you simming CMA with Scales or are you simming LDSC with scales vs LDSC with CMA?

Because in my sims (either with napkin math from the spreadsheet or with Simcraft itself), CMA and Scales appear to be BiS for both specs. both of them have been buffed significantly while LDSC is still the same stat level.

Trinket listing MM: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...-60/?p=2276647
Spreadsheet (napkin math): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=208702416

1) Outdated simcraft version.
2) Outdated Kill Shot/Aimed Shot damage.
3) Didn't you run with no second trinket/some passive trinket for second slot? Having the Coin will boost Scales of Doom by magnitudes because of guaranteed RPPM in the opener + 1.5k agi and having Scales of Doom will boost the Coin moreso than CMA. Not everyone has the coin, but many people have proc trinkets of another kind. The Coin is an extreme (but common) example of RPPM trink value inflation.
4) Mastery value on CMA will be lost because you move.
5) Haste value on CMA will be lost because average players don't make use of Haste by having perfect globals. Time saved across all casts is significantly lower when the total cast count is lower. (And almost nobody can match SimC APM).

#azormean
#azorrude
#azorvillain

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Theelol

so i got both trinkets on hc now, and i use dlsc in 1st slot, simming scales gives me 24773.6 dps, while cma 25883.9, how? i mean, scales is obly better

Throw armory/profile, it sounds off. Even if CMA was better, it wouldn't be 1k DPS better.

**Effinhunter** · 2014-12-18, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Azortharion

1) Outdated simcraft version.
2) Outdated Kill Shot/Aimed Shot damage.
3) Didn't you run with no second trinket/some passive trinket for second slot? Having the Coin will boost Scales of Doom by magnitudes because of guaranteed RPPM in the opener + 1.5k agi and having Scales of Doom will boost the Coin moreso than CMA. Not everyone has the coin, but many people have proc trinkets of another kind. The Coin is an extreme (but common) example of RPPM trink value inflation.
4) Mastery value on CMA will be lost because you move.
5) Haste value on CMA will be lost because average players don't make use of Haste by having perfect globals. Time saved across all casts is significantly lower when the total cast count is lower. (And almost nobody can match SimC APM).

#azormean
#azorrude
#azorvillain

- - - Updated - - -

Throw armory/profile, it sounds off. Even if CMA was better, it wouldn't be 1k DPS better.

The trinket listing is constructed with mythic gear, using all possible trinket combinations and reporting top dps profile seen with that trinket. If he's talking about MM, there haven't been nerfs to MM since I've run those trinkets, so no. Not outdated. But as I've stated, we are working on borrowing CPU cycles from hunters to rerun all sims.

If you wouldn't mind, please keep your stupid teenage memes to yourself. It does nothing to strengthen your argument or make you sound like you know what you're talking about.

Anyway, as I said, post your armory and/or simcraft profiles, and I'll try to help. Or Azor will help. Either way, I'm interested in what you're seeing.

**Azortharion** · 2014-12-18, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Effinhunter

The trinket listing is constructed with mythic gear, using all possible trinket combinations and reporting top dps profile seen with that trinket. If he's talking about MM, there haven't been nerfs to MM since I've run those trinkets, so no. Not outdated. But as I've stated, we are working on borrowing CPU cycles from hunters to rerun all sims.

If you wouldn't mind, please keep your stupid teenage memes to yourself. It does nothing to strengthen your argument or make you sound like you know what you're talking about.

Anyway, as I said, post your armory and/or simcraft profiles, and I'll try to help. Or Azor will help. Either way, I'm interested in what you're seeing.

The last update you reported was on the 3rd of December with 603-14, over 2 weeks ago. On the 8th of December, there was a 10% Aimed Shot and 10% Kill Shot nerf. How have you achieved almost 44k DPS in SimCraft even with WFHS trinkets, because even when I run with 2x WFHS trinkets (BHoTM and HBT) with the otherwise standard Mythic gearset (SimC default), I can't break 41.7k.
You seem to have newer trinkets (Bloodmaw's Tooth) on there achieving 41.5k - how?

The downside of having to use multiple people's CPU cycles over hours and hou

**Effinhunter** · 2014-12-18, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Azortharion

The last update you reported was on the 3rd of December with 603-14, over 2 weeks ago. On the 8th of December, there was a 10% Aimed Shot and 10% Kill Shot nerf. How have you achieved almost 44k DPS in SimCraft even with WFHS trinkets, because even when I run with 2x WFHS trinkets (BHoTM and HBT) with the otherwise standard Mythic gearset (SimC default), I can't break 41.7k.
You seem to have newer trinkets (Bloodmaw's Tooth) on there achieving 41.5k - how?

The downside of having to use multiple people's CPU cycles over hours and hou

The power of some of these trinkets when you test them with all combinations can be almost completely dependent on what you pair them with. Like I said, I'll try to get new comprehensive sims out as soon as possible. My point in posting the links was not to say "here's your answer." It was to say, "CMA has been really powerful, along with Scales due to buffs, as you can see in recent tests. I would like to run new sims with your profile to see if I can replicate what you are seeing or at least explain to you what you might be doing wrong."

**Azortharion** · 2014-12-18, 07:24 PM

Your highest combination seems to be WFSM BHoTM + HBT at 43.7k. I ran the same trinkets and got ~2k less. Obviously there is -something- off if it is not outdated like you say. BiS Mythic trinkets achieve the same as your Bloodmaw's + BHoTM I would assume is the best pairing in 603-19.

Recent tests are not worth much if there's something completely off about them (as you can probably recognize. The DPS output looks strangely akin to pre-nerf numbers).

Applying the nerfs would mean:
1) Lower value of any non-passive trinket, really.
2) Scales of Doom/BHoTM more powerful.
3) HBT less powerful.
among other things.

"CMA and Scales have been really powerful in recent tests." doesn't answer the OP's question at all since he wanted to know which one of those two trinkets was better/why he was seeing one far above the other, and not how well the two of them compared to all the rest.

You claim that you were not posting the links to present an answer, but in that case I don't know why you'd post them.

1) You didn't link to any profiles (that the non-SimCraft Explorian would comprehend, at least?)
2) You didn't link to any useful simulations (as we've determined, unless you're running other-than-default settings, but if you were, you would already have told me).

Other than that, linking them doesn't say something like "give me your profiles/armory so I can test it for myself". That's what words say. Words that you did use. Other than that, the link doesn't do anything but confuse.

Furthermore, he already said that his second trinket is LDSC, which would only make Scales of Doom stronger and not weaker. If he didn't have LDSC, that wouldn't explain CMA winning in any scenario either.

**Effinhunter** · 2014-12-18, 09:50 PM

I'll run the trinket sims right now to make sure they are up-to-date. As I've said, I'm hoping to refresh all of the sims post patch to make sure no one is being misguided. Pico has finished the BM ST sims already, and he's moving on to the SV and MM sims next (hopefully we'll have those done this week). I'll work on trinket sims in the short term and hopefully do weapon sims, at least, soon. Additionally, I'm going to work on some Highmaul scripts to check BiS for crafted/BoE/Highmaul.

One thing I may be able to mess around with today is just running everything with LDSC as the first trinket. See what happens.

- - - Updated - - -

The following shows relationships, using my gear and different trinket configurations, and where exactly LDSC appears to lose ground to Highmaul trinkets for MM and SV. Let me know if you find any issues with the sims. These were all done by hand rather than with Simcraft Explorer, and I may have made an error.

MM Highmaul trinkets

Spoiler:

SV Highmaul trinkets

Spoiler:

As you can see, the trinket threshold for replacing LDSC for SV is much lower. If you get two heroic trinkets from highmaul with practically any combination of WF or S on one of them, you should be able to replace LDSC pretty quickly. From the sims, for MM, LDSC appears to be better than the heroic trinkets. It's only when you get the base mythic models that LDSC is overtaken.

Let me know if anyone finds any issues with the settings used.

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