What should they do with Holy Nova?

[ceddya]

You need to consider how much it heals for. It's not like it heals for as much as CH or PoH.

CH and PoH heal for ~1100% with a 2.5s cast time. HN used to heal for 562.5% with a 1.5s GCD. Then consider that PoH costs 7.1% mana versus HN's 1.6%. How can you possibly justify giving HN a HPET that's 85% of PoH's, but yet costs only 22.5% of what PoH does?

This wouldn't be an issue if HPS were the only concern, but efficiency does matter in WoD too. Allowing Disc access to such a mana efficient heal, that I'm also pretty sure is unmatched by any other non-CD heal, is poor balance as well.

[Godspede]

If I may suggest, I'd go for removing the 5 cap, or put a higher number cap if cap is needed. Can't really wish for some turbo buff as it should supplement the whole skill set and not overpower the whole priority.
And on a side note, I personally would want to see more done with the atonement, I much like, I assume many others, really liked that aspect, maybe a bit too much wouldn't post any suggestions on that one though as it's its way offtopic.

[Aparthia]

CH and PoH heal for ~1100% with a 2.5s cast time. HN used to heal for 562.5% with a 1.5s GCD. Then consider that PoH costs 7.1% mana versus HN's 1.6%. How can you possibly justify giving HN a HPET that's 85% of PoH's, but yet costs only 22.5% of what PoH does?

This wouldn't be an issue if HPS were the only concern, but efficiency does matter in WoD too. Allowing Disc access to such a mana efficient heal, that I'm also pretty sure is unmatched by any other non-CD heal, is poor balance as well.

I realise it needs to be tuned, but if the primary concern is tuning, then it's just about finding the right coefficient for it or introduce a cooldown, not the spell being problematic in itself.

It's hard to compare efficient AE heals because they vary wildly either by having cooldowns or have other limitations like only able to have one up at a time.

[Well]

That's the thing you want to rebuke?

It costs 9k mana per cast, while cheaper than PoH at 11.4k, it's still not a cheap spell.



Other healers have AoE spells with no cd, so I don't see the controversy there. HN doesn't need DR, it's limited to 5 hits per cast. It has a low mana cost, but each cast doesn't hit for all that much either. So yeah, I don't see the problem you're seeing.

Could you give us an example of another healer ability that is like HN? Because this is ridiculous, honestly.

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You don't see the issue with HN only costing 1.6% mana? It might not have needed a throughput nerf, but it could have done with a mana cost increase and a cast time.

I think that most ppl on this board, including me, worry more about the gameplay. Blizzard has mostly proven that the numbers are ok for all healers. As I said, a no CD aoe heal that is also instant... yeah. Not the most interesting of gameplays, plus not the most effective one at low gear levels.

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If I may suggest, I'd go for removing the 5 cap, or put a higher number cap if cap is needed. Can't really wish for some turbo buff as it should supplement the whole skill set and not overpower the whole priority.
And on a side note, I personally would want to see more done with the atonement, I much like, I assume many others, really liked that aspect, maybe a bit too much wouldn't post any suggestions on that one though as it's its way offtopic.

The coolest and most awesome change would be some mechanic with stacks which would increase targets hit and distance covered. This solves many things: a) Purpose: depending on the stacks acquired and the allowed power of them by design, HN would be used differently in almost every encounter, contrary to what it used to be in SoO, which I don't even want to remember anymore. b) Gameplay: yay for spamming 1 button... not. c) Visual pleasantness: it currently is uninteresting to watch, hear, and the frequency with which is was used in SoO, made that even worse.

[PosPosPos]

That's the thing you want to rebuke?

It costs 9k mana per cast, while cheaper than PoH at 11.4k, it's still not a cheap spell.

That's because Resto Shamans have 2 ways to impact its mana cost:

1) Resurgence on a crit
2) Elemental Blast giving a strong spirit buff for the duration(it's basically the go-to talent of the tier for the most part)

[Aparthia]

That's because Resto Shamans have 2 ways to impact its mana cost:

1) Resurgence on a crit
2) Elemental Blast giving a strong spirit buff for the duration(it's basically the go-to talent of the tier for the most part)

CH and PoH both remain expensive spells.

Resurgence gives far less mana now than it did in Mists and with the crit levels shamans have, it's hardly worth mentioning. Looking at the only public mythic imperator kill, their shaman gained a whopping 53.9k spirit over the course of 15m54s.

Elemental Blast gives less mana than Solace under optimal conditions. Using the Imperator kill-time under perfect use, Elemental Blast would give you 666.67 spirit on average(8s buff of 1k spirit with a 12s cd). In 15m54s that's 127333.3 mana. Solace on CD is 304000 mana. There's a long way from what EB can give to what Solace can give.

[PosPosPos]

CH and PoH both remain expensive spells.

Resurgence gives far less mana now than it did in Mists and with the crit levels shamans have, it's hardly worth mentioning. Looking at the only public mythic imperator kill, their shaman gained a whopping 53.9k spirit over the course of 15m54s.

Elemental Blast gives less mana than Solace under optimal conditions. Using the Imperator kill-time under perfect use, Elemental Blast would give you 666.67 spirit on average(8s buff of 1k spirit with a 12s cd). In 15m54s that's 127333.3 mana. Solace on CD is 304000 mana. There's a long way from what EB can give to what Solace can give.

And yet Shamans can cast way more Chain Heals than Disc Priests can cast PoH.

In any case, the point being made here is not that Chain Heal isn't expensive, but that you made it sound more expensive than it really is.

[Aparthia]

And yet Shamans can cast way more Chain Heals than Disc Priests can cast PoH.

In any case, the point being made here is not that Chain Heal isn't expensive, but that you made it sound more expensive than it really is.

I don't think it's a question of shamans being able to cast more CHs than disc can cast PoHs, it's more a question of what means different specs have to a problem. One PoH costs the same as 3 PWS and heals for less than 3 casts of PWS. There's almost no scenario, except with EAA, where PoH is worth casting over PWS. Shamans are in a different situation where they need to cast CH to do decent non-stacked AoE healing.

I don't see how I'm exaggerating anything, both spells have no cooldown, but their use is inhibited by a high mana cost.

[PosPosPos]

I don't think it's a question of shamans being able to cast more CHs than disc can cast PoHs, it's more a question of what means different specs have to a problem. One PoH costs the same as 3 PWS and heals for less than 3 casts of PWS. There's almost no scenario, except with EAA, where PoH is worth casting over PWS.

There's already a tweet/blue post about heals like PoH being way more expensive than they should be. We should probably get at least a mana buff to PoH next tier or so.

Shamans are in a different situation where they need to cast CH to do decent non-stacked AoE healing.

I would agree for the most part, except Disc has to jump through multiple hoops(or rather, cast multiple times of PW:S) compared to Shaman to achieve non-stacked "AoE" healing.

I don't see how I'm exaggerating anything, both spells have no cooldown, but their use is inhibited by a high mana cost.

Chain Heal is still
1) cheaper in terms of mana per second
2) has a significantly higher HPM than PoH even under non-heavy raid damage scenarios

If I had to compare PoH, I think Wild Growth would be a more relevant comparison given how Druids have very limited options to restore or mitigate mana costs.

[TheSerialSniper]

Holy Nova should have a 30sec cd, 2.0 sec cast , 15y radius, cost about 10% mana, no target cap, heal for 85% of a PoH initial but, drop an aegis for 165% of that 85%. This spell would share the weakened soul debuff with PWS, ignoring those that currently have the debuff, and giving the debuff to those it hits. The weakened soul debuff from those hit by this spell would last 9 seconds.


Those changes would not only make it viable yet not OP, but give disc some delicious flavors.

P.S. this is my opinion

[PosPosPos]

Holy Nova should have a 30sec cd, 2.0 sec cast , 15y radius, cost about 10% mana, no target cap, heal for 85% of a PoH initial but, drop an aegis for 165% of that 85%. This spell would share the weakened soul debuff with PWS, ignoring those that currently have the debuff, and giving the debuff to those it hits. The weakened soul debuff from those hit by this spell would last 9 seconds.


Those changes would not only make it viable yet not OP, but give disc some delicious flavors.

P.S. this is my opinion

That would actually make HN really OP....

There's a really good reason why Spirit Shell has been nerfed so many times in the past; this HN you are proposing is essentially it except way more overtuned and cheaper.

[Well]

Holy Nova should have a 30sec cd, 2.0 sec cast , 15y radius, cost about 10% mana, no target cap, heal for 85% of a PoH initial but, drop an aegis for 165% of that 85%. This spell would share the weakened soul debuff with PWS, ignoring those that currently have the debuff, and giving the debuff to those it hits. The weakened soul debuff from those hit by this spell would last 9 seconds.


Those changes would not only make it viable yet not OP, but give disc some delicious flavors.

P.S. this is my opinion

I don't see how this does not crawl (or actually run) back to uncapped T90 though. Because that sounds exactly like that, plus you diminish crit value by always making it proc DA. I don't think it's a good idea. Try to imagine this in conjuction with SS. Dear Lord, all the tasty tears.

[Deleted]

I find it useful in challenge modes when there is low damage to be honest

[Jimjam38]

Maybe it gets you off by disagreeing with someone you don't like even though you actually agree with him.

That's why the HN nerf and 20% PWS buff should be reverted, and both spells would be on par with each other.

Yeah, for now, without any foreseeable spec revamp, reverting that change would be the best band-aid solution.

Also, I actually, srsly, literally fap every day over the idea of disagreeing with someone I dont like just for the sake of argument, its what gets me hard. You freaking turdburger.

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Holy Nova can never be balanced in it's current form, said it years ago. Either it'll be the go to spell or shit, it's just the nature of a spammable AoE spell! So, it will need some twist to it to work in game; CD or procc or something else!

If it gets given a CD it's literally just a 12 yrd PBAoE CoH. I think a proc or something akin to my suggestion is the best option but I also kinda agree with Noradin that it would create a bit of a secondary resource, and that's not really something I want, I think secondary resources aren't a good design for healers. That being said, as long as it only affected holy nova, it wouldn't be too bad, since only holy nova would have to be tuned around it, and if they brought PWS back in line a bit as well to compensate that probably would be a good thing anyway.

Back to the topic of its current state, nothing can be properly balanced if it has no interaction or synergy with other abilities, either it's worth using a lot or its not worth using. In a spec with essentially no interaction between spells we're just going to select our most efficient spell and spam it. If disc was a dps spec, we'd be the one that just spams their filler because it's stronger than everything else, and if that was the case for a dps spec there'd be outrage. It's incredible that they've actually let it get to this state, and kinda proves just how out of touch with healers the dev team are.

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I'd also be fine if they changed words of mending to effect Holy Nova instead of PoM for disc. So something like:

Empowered Holy Nova:

Your healing and shielding spell casts grant you a stack of Empowered Holy Nova. Each stack increases the healing of your next Holy Nova by x%; maximum 10 stacks.

Ideally there would be a point where casting holy nova is stronger than casting PW:S (3 - 5 stacks), and you could bank stacks for burst aoe healing.

Yeah, this is essentially what I suggested, although I think it if were a talent it would often be mandatory, so that could be problematic. I'd still like to see it have an increased range and number of targets hit cause that's just awesome.

Kinda reminds me of someone's sarcastic comment way back during beta, where they suggested that the next disc change would be to make all our spells, including holy nova, have a chance to unleash an additional holy nova. Now I actually wouldn't mind such a mechanic, at least it would add some interest, kinda.

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I think they should make it more badass like in the TBC trailer, add a cd and make it really strong.

The badass would come from, in my suggestion, unleashing a full stacks 24 yrd Holy Nova that hits 10 targets for 200% the normal amount. Fuck that would look epic.

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Discipline needs a complete revamp/remake. I am in favour of that.

I agree, although I don't believe for a second that the current dev team is capable of revamping a healing spec and managing to have the result both still resemble the original, and be viable. I feel like its one or the other. I expect if they revamp disc in 6.X or 7.0, it will be unrecognisable and piss a lot of long time disc players off.

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You don't see the issue with HN only costing 1.6% mana? It might not have needed a throughput nerf, but it could have done with a mana cost increase and a cast time.

Despite what people think, HN is nowhere near mana neutral. Go into an LFR and spam it, even with solace usage you'll watch your mana drain a lot faster than you'd expect. Currently it's healing nowhere near justifies the mana cost. I'll remind people that HN recieved a 50% nerf when it was almost dead even with PWS when healing 5 targets, no overheal, and that was before PWS received the 20% buff. Anyone who thinks that nerf was justified is kidding themselves.

Mana cost increase? Maybe it was needed at the time, but increase it by much and it would have instantly hit the same issues as PoH and we'd be back to PWS spaming anyway.

Cast time? No. No way. Anything more than a 1.5 sec cast time and the hps wouldnt be worth it, and if it was a 1.5 sec cast time then the only difference is that it's no longer mobile, something very problematic for a position based AoE, and that the healing happens at the end of the gcd, as opposed to the start of the gcd, which is how instant casts work.

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CH and PoH heal for ~1100% with a 2.5s cast time. HN used to heal for 562.5% with a 1.5s GCD. Then consider that PoH costs 7.1% mana versus HN's 1.6%. How can you possibly justify giving HN a HPET that's 85% of PoH's, but yet costs only 22.5% of what PoH does?

This wouldn't be an issue if HPS were the only concern, but efficiency does matter in WoD too. Allowing Disc access to such a mana efficient heal, that I'm also pretty sure is unmatched by any other non-CD heal, is poor balance as well.

And allowing a single target spell to heal for more than a target capped AoE with no overhealing is also poor balance.

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Holy Nova should have a 30sec cd, 2.0 sec cast , 15y radius, cost about 10% mana, no target cap, heal for 85% of a PoH initial but, drop an aegis for 165% of that 85%. This spell would share the weakened soul debuff with PWS, ignoring those that currently have the debuff, and giving the debuff to those it hits. The weakened soul debuff from those hit by this spell would last 9 seconds.


Those changes would not only make it viable yet not OP, but give disc some delicious flavors.

P.S. this is my opinion

That would be pretty awesome, but so unbalanced its not funny. You've basically just described 5.4.8 Halo minus the weakened soul debuff, and it was broken as fuck.

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I don't see how this does not crawl (or actually run) back to uncapped T90 though. Because that sounds exactly like that, plus you diminish crit value by always making it proc DA. I don't think it's a good idea. Try to imagine this in conjuction with SS. Dear Lord, all the tasty tears.

Ah lol, i see someone else reached that conclusion first.

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I also think that even in it's current crappy state, given enough crit and mastery, holy nova will again run into the SoO DA blanketing 6.0 problems. Perhaps in addition to my suggestion, Holy Nova shouldn't proc DA, but either have its throughput increased by our crit rating and be effectively unable to crit (like Chaos bolt, Soulfire, etc), or be able to crit like a normal healer. I suspect that from a programming perspective, it would be easier to make it be unable to crit and simply have it's throughput increased by our crit rating, rather than trying to make it function like a normal healer's crits, which no doubt would cause all kinds of programming issues with Divine Aegis.

[Nadiru]

The first thing that needs to happen is that it needs to be renamed to Discipline Nova.

[ceddya]

Despite what people think, HN is nowhere near mana neutral. Go into an LFR and spam it, even with solace usage you'll watch your mana drain a lot faster than you'd expect. Currently it's healing nowhere near justifies the mana cost. I'll remind people that HN recieved a 50% nerf when it was almost dead even with PWS when healing 5 targets, no overheal, and that was before PWS received the 20% buff. Anyone who thinks that nerf was justified is kidding themselves.

Mana cost increase? Maybe it was needed at the time, but increase it by much and it would have instantly hit the same issues as PoH and we'd be back to PWS spaming anyway.

Cast time? No. No way. Anything more than a 1.5 sec cast time and the hps wouldnt be worth it, and if it was a 1.5 sec cast time then the only difference is that it's no longer mobile, something very problematic for a position based AoE, and that the healing happens at the end of the gcd, as opposed to the start of the gcd, which is how instant casts work.

Except that wasn't what was said. Regardless, having HN be that efficient while doing that much healing is awful for balance. Anyone saying that HN didn't need a nerf in the HPM or HPET is kidding themselves too.

And yes, HN does need a cast time if you want it to remain as strong as it was pre-nerf. The mobility offered by spells like Renew and Rejuv are offset by their relatively lower output compared to HN.

The easiest solution to HN is to bump its healing slightly (to where Heal is at) and make it very mana efficient. The mana 'savings' from HN's efficiency can then be channeled into allowing Disc Priests to cast PoH. Needless to say, PW:S should also receive a rather substantial nerf. Mechanical changes would be nice, but the devs have repeatedly said that they don't see any major ones for any specs in the next two patches.

[Adhemar]

Huh? What's Holy Nova? I don't even ...