[Disc] How to Fix PW:S

[mag07]

- Instant cast
- Has the EHP utility from being an absorb
- Great scaling with Mastery
- One of the best spot healing abilities in the game
- Amazing output
- Highly efficient

Yeah, it's so not op.

You don't focus on numbers of one ability, you look at the whole picture. A nerf to PWS without completely redesigning all other abilities, or even just adjusting their throughput would be a disaster to disc and would simply mean we'd all go holy lol.

It's powerful, indeed, it doesn't do very much on it's own in the raid environment. Disc playstyle depends very much on other healer setup in the group. Assuming ofc you care about maximum efficiency proportionate to the incoming dmg, and not about your personal hps.

PWS is not spot healing. You seem to have a fundamental understanding issue with what absorbs are and how they are meant to work. You don't PWS people after they take dmg, you focus on preventing it in the first place. If you find yourself spot healing with PWS you are doing it wrong and so are your fellow healers. Using any sort of boss mods makes it trivial to prevent incoming damage, when coordinated with other raid wide cds, it suddenly is less spammy, more pleasant, and you can smite away in between to build up your AA, and/or focus on tank duty.

I personally quite like how disc plays atm. I often swap between CoP and WOM depending on who the other raid healers are, and the ability to create a synergy with them without needing to change spec is quite refreshing.

[anon5123]

If a spell with an incredibly bloated kit

The fact that you're saying Disc has a "bloated kit" makes me glad that you're not in charge of balance either.

Just because an ability is unique, doesn't mean it's overpowered.

[emni]

PW:S is overpowered in the sense that it is way stronger than it should be (i.e. over-powered!), which forces disc priests to use it as their main healing tool. The healing style itself is not "overpowered" as it's balanced in line with other healers, but it's incredibly tedious and boring.

Some things I used to love about my priest that are now completely gone:

1. Choosing the right lvl90 talent for a fight. Gone. Use Cascade or don't bother.

2. Picking the right targets for Atonement to proc ToF. ToF now doesn't boost shield healing nor is it triggered by damage or shielding. Overall, talent sucks, gone.

3. Using PoM. It's so weak it's literally only worth it on prepulls.

4. Shielding smartly for Rapture. Removed.

5. Using Inner Focus smartly. Sure, it's baked into Archangel now, but it's just not the same.

6. Spirit Shelling at the right time. It seems there is just little place for this spell now with how strong PW:S is. Brackenspore is basically the only exception.

It just feels like such a dull spec now. I don't understand how people can argue that PW:S does not need its power tuning down. I say just smack it with the same stick as Lifebloom and make it castable on one target only. Rebalance other spells accordingly. Make our 90 talents worth a choice and give us some spell interaction.

[Deleted]

Power Word: Shield is far too powerful. It needs to be nerfed and Holy Nova, Atonement, PoM and L90 talents need considerably buffed. Prayer of Healing is fine at the moment for output but a mana cost reduction wouldn't be amiss.

[Noradin]

What proposal do you have to buffing other aspects of Disc's toolkit without nerfing PW:S? You can't possibly do so without it being a completely unnecessary net buff to Disc.

Actually, they could and should buff all other abilites disc has quite a bit without it being a net gain to disc at all - pw:s is that far ahead and everything else that far behind.

Another reason why it is so far ahead is because it was nerfed too much before - it has to have strong numbers in itself because of weak synergies (yes there is that haste buff, but we have no haste for it to work on currently). Our Talents were nerfed to not work with absorbs the way they should have anymore.
If PW:S cannot proc Surge of Light then it has to make up for that with numbers, if it cannot proc Twist of Fate nor benefit from that then it has to make up for that in straight numbers. Atonement does not work with mastery - well the go to spell of Disc has to make up for it. HN is made worthless and PoH costs too much - buff PW:S to offset that...

This is what happens when you nerf and remove too much stuff and still want the result to stay 'unique' compared to other specs for the same role that lost spells that were not cookie cutter enough in a similar way: You run out of options where to put the neccessary minimum throughput every spec needs in all situations to stay viable. Because (fortunately) that is what Blizzard cares about: Specs need to be viable in every encounter before being balanced in every encounter.

If being 'unique' and being 'viable' come first, then being 'balanced' is only third, and everyone who knows a bit more about theoretical physics and mathematics will tell you that trying to optimize complex systems for three independent variables almost always fails. You will end up with two that are alright and one that is off - if it is possible at all.

The best you can do in most cases is experiment, but that is what beta should have been for.

[ceddya]

You don't focus on numbers of one ability, you look at the whole picture. A nerf to PWS without completely redesigning all other abilities, or even just adjusting their throughput would be a disaster to disc and would simply mean we'd all go holy lol.

It's powerful, indeed, it doesn't do very much on it's own in the raid environment. Disc playstyle depends very much on other healer setup in the group. Assuming ofc you care about maximum efficiency proportionate to the incoming dmg, and not about your personal hps.

PWS is not spot healing. You seem to have a fundamental understanding issue with what absorbs are and how they are meant to work. You don't PWS people after they take dmg, you focus on preventing it in the first place. If you find yourself spot healing with PWS you are doing it wrong and so are your fellow healers. Using any sort of boss mods makes it trivial to prevent incoming damage, when coordinated with other raid wide cds, it suddenly is less spammy, more pleasant, and you can smite away in between to build up your AA, and/or focus on tank duty.

This is a thread about PW:S, which is why my discussion revolves around it. The whole picture is that PW:S allows Disc to bring amazing output while comprising 60-70% of its total output - which points to it being too strong relative to everything else. If Disc becomes too weak with a PW:S nerf, then address the inadequacies with the rest of its toolkit.

Also, PW:S is great spot healing/shield. Do you not use it for debuffs like Injured, Blaze or Branded? You do know that you can both pre-shield your raid and then spot shield those who get debuff, right? Heck, it's the most potent tool at emergency spot healing those who are low on health.

If you don't understand these incredible strengths of PW:S (especially when you contrast it against those of Rejuv, Renew, ReM or CH), then you have a fundamental understanding issue.

The fact that you're saying Disc has a "bloated kit" makes me glad that you're not in charge of balance either.

Just because an ability is unique, doesn't mean it's overpowered.

Please read, 'if a spell' clearly refers to a singular ability, namely PW:S.

If an ability is unique and too strong, then yes, it is overpowered.

- - - Updated - - -

The scaling with mastery is already included in the other points.
The absorb thing can be an disadvantage thus it is the one I count as 'half'
All the others combine to 'One of the best spot healing abilites in the game', but I count them as two, because it is both efficient and can be used while moving.
Efficient already includes 'amazing output', which includes the 'short cast time' part of 'Instant'.

So basically you end up with: efficient, usable while moving, and absorb. Which for me is 2 and a half points due to the disadvantages the last one can have.

Efficient - Great HPM comparable to the other core raid heals that aren't gated by a CD (Renew, Rejuv etc.)
Amazing output - Much higher HPET compared to those same spells
Instant cast - Not only does it grant mobility (which is a limitation of CH and Uplift), it also does so instataneously (which is a limitation of HoTs)

Spot healing capabilities - this is a by-product of the aforementioned factors, but it's a strength that can't exactly conflate with the rest
Great scaling - again, this is another strength of PW:S that you can't simply wave away. It has a 1.6% scaling per point of Mastery - which is much higher than most other spells
Utility of absorbs - sorry, but the disadvantage you stated can easily be remedied by using PW:S properly. The advantages of PW:S being able to pre-shield and for it to act as a substantial HP buffer is incredibly strong and unique only to it.

Many other raid heals have certain strengths listed here, but can you even name one that has all these and yet literally no downsides?

Actually, they could and should buff all other abilites disc has quite a bit without it being a net gain to disc at all - pw:s is that far ahead and everything else that far behind.

They really can't. You cannot possibly meaningfully buff the other spells so that there are situations where they are worth using over PW:S without it being a net buff to the spec. Given the current fights and seeing how versatile PW:S is, why would you use your other heals if they didn't have a HPM or HPS advantage compared to PW:S?

[anon5123]

If an ability is unique and too strong

too strong

How is PWS "too strong" ? It's not that PWS is strong, it's that absorbs in general look better on meters due to taking priority over all other heals.

That and, as others have stated, if they nerf it right now, Disc will be fucked because it has no other good spells except CoW.

[TwoTapTimmy]

- Instant cast
- Has the EHP utility from being an absorb
- Great scaling with Mastery
- One of the best spot healing abilities in the game
- Amazing output
- Highly efficient

Yeah, it's so not op.

- Has a debuff so it cannot be spammed on the same target... That's right, it's not OP

[anon5123]

- Has a debuff so it cannot be spammed on the same target... That's right, it's not OP

Yep, and yet he claims it has "literally no downsides". No downsides, eh? What about:

-Cannot cast it on the same target more than once every 10-12 seconds
-Weakened Soul limits the amount of Discs you can have in a raid
-Furthermore, it can cause confusion between two Discs, especially when shielding the tanks
-Shielding is only effective at preventing damage, not healing, so the whole "spot healing" argument doesn't work
-Duration has been cut down to 15 seconds, making it much harder to "pre-shield" and limiting the amount of shields you can have for a raid damage hit

Yeah..."literally no downsides", for sure.

[ceddya]

Yep, and yet he claims it has "literally no downsides". No downsides, eh? What about:

-Cannot cast it on the same target more than once every 10-12 seconds
-Weakened Soul limits the amount of Discs you can have in a raid
-Furthermore, it can cause confusion between two Discs, especially when shielding the tanks
-Shielding is only effective at preventing damage, not healing, so the whole "spot healing" argument doesn't work

Yeah..."literally no downsides", for sure.

Except those aren't practical downsides, try again. Only the first comes close to being a disadvantage, but it's trivial consider how potent a cast of PW:S is.

[anon5123]

Except those aren't practical downsides, try again.

So your response is "nuh uh" ?

Okay then.

[ceddya]

How is PWS "too strong" ? It's not that PWS is strong, it's that absorbs in general look better on meters due to taking priority over all other heals.

That and, as others have stated, if they nerf it right now, Disc will be fucked because it has no other good spells except CoW.

It must be nice being one of the delusional few who can't see that PW:S is too strong.

PW:S is a spammble, instant and efficient ST shield with a 600% SP scaling. There literally is no other raid heal that can come close to what it does, at least not ones gated by a CD. Just because the rest of Disc's toolkit is improperly balanced is no justification for the imbalance with PW:S.

[Shuffled]

My general experience tells me the problem with Disc isn't PW:S. PW:S makes us very competitive with other healers. The problem with PW:S is that nothing else is either (1) worth casting from a HPS point of view or (2) worth the mana investment.

[Floopa]

granted disc has no other options but to use PWS but that doesn't excuse PWS being as strong as it is (it's ridiculously strong).

i would like to see the normal heals buffed in a way which buffs PWS, i also like the suggestion that weakened soul increases the mana cost of PWS (if other spells are buffed of course).

[anon5123]

It must be nice being one of the delusional few who can't see that PW:S is too strong.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is delusional"

That really helps your credibility.

Except those aren't practical downsides, try again. Only the first comes close to being a disadvantage, but it's trivial consider how potent a cast of PW:S is.

You said PWS has "LITERALLY no downsides". All of what I listed are downsides.

You're focusing on the strength of the absorb and nothing else, and using that to claim that PWS is "OP".

Efficient - Great HPM comparable to the other core raid heals that aren't gated by a CD (Renew, Rejuv etc.)

A lot of healing spells have good HPM, yes.

Amazing output - Much higher HPET compared to those same spells

This is the only place where PWS is really anywhere close to "OP". Its absorb amount is offset by Weakened Soul.

Instant cast - Not only does it grant mobility (which is a limitation of CH and Uplift), it also does so instataneously (which is a limitation of HoTs)

You're comparing a single target ability to AoE abilities.
Just saying. No shit the AoEs are going to have cast times.

Spot healing capabilities - this is a by-product of the aforementioned factors, but it's a strength that can't exactly conflate with the rest

Shields do not heal. A shield on someone at 20% is not going to help as much as an actual heal.

Great scaling - again, this is another strength of PW:S that you can't simply wave away. It has a 1.6% scaling per point of Mastery - which is much higher than most other spells

Again, a lot of healing spells have good scaling. PWS is not unique in that aspect. Renew scales really well with Multistrike, yet you don't see people crying for Renew to be nerfed, despite it being in the same position as PWS, being highly spammable and healing for a ton.

Utility of absorbs - sorry, but the disadvantage you stated can easily be remedied by using PW:S properly. The advantages of PW:S being able to pre-shield and for it to act as a substantial HP buffer is incredibly strong and unique only to it.

PWS is not unique in being an absorb.

And with a 15 second duration, pre-shielding is limited.


Seeing as this "debate" is going in circles with one side screaming for nerfs and calling everyone else delusional, I think I'll just spare myself the time and leave. Have fun crying for Disc to get its best spell nerfed just so that you can have your healing meter e-peen back.

[Deleted]

Problem is that if PWS wasn't as "OP" as it currently is, disc would be in a world of trouble since every other spell is so weak/inefficient.
Yes, it's stupid that PWS is our best choice in so many situations but you can't nerf it and not do anything about the rest of out frankly pretty terrible toolkit.


PWS, Penance, Solace and Cascade are pretty much the only spells worth casting (and CoW on some fights)

[Noradin]

They really can't. You cannot possibly meaningfully buff the other spells so that there are situations where they are worth using over PW:S without it being a net buff to the spec. Given the current fights and seeing how versatile PW:S is, why would you use your other heals if they didn't have a HPM or HPS advantage compared to PW:S?

Why said anything about meaningfully so that they are worth using? I said they can be buffed quite a bit without affecting anything because they are that bad right now. That is the definition of 'not meaningfully but substantial'.

- - - Updated - - -

granted disc has no other options but to use PWS but that doesn't excuse PWS being as strong as it is (it's ridiculously strong).

It does, since 'viability' comes before 'balance'. Thus the problem is the potential alternatives being too weak.
If 'balance' came before 'viability' then the problem would be PW:S being too strong.

- - - Updated - - -

i would like to see the normal heals buffed in a way which buffs PW:S, i also like the suggestion that weakened soul increases the mana cost of PWS (if other spells are buffed of course).

The idea with weakened soul would not work well. And it would have unpredictable interactions between disc priests in random groups (even moreso than now).
Better have PW:S stack a debuff increasing cost for some short amount of time (partly like arcan blast), but that idea is as old as ICC when the CD on PW:S was first removed for disc. I clearly remember proposing it back then.

[Deleted]

PW:S is overpowered in the sense that it is way stronger than it should be (i.e. over-powered!), which forces disc priests to use it as their main healing tool.

That is because there's literally nothing else we can use effectively.

[Noradin]

PW:S is overpowered in the sense that it is way stronger than it should be (i.e. over-powered!), which forces disc priests to use it as their main healing tool.

It's the other way around, its not PW:S that forces disc priests to use it as their main healing tool, it is the weakness of all other spells they have that disqualifies them as main healing tools.

[ceddya]

"Anyone who disagrees with me is delusional"

That really helps your credibility.

Nope, but you should stop ignoring the other Discs who think PW:S is too strong too.

You said PWS has "LITERALLY no downsides". All of what I listed are downsides.

You're focusing on the strength of the absorb and nothing else, and using that to claim that PWS is "OP".

Renew, Rejuv and PW:S are all general raid heals for their respective specs. Renew and Rejuv do much less healing over 12-18s, while PW:S shield for more immediately with a 10s Weakened Soul. Which do you think is actually the bigger weakness?

A lot of healing spells have good HPM, yes.

This is the only place where PWS is really anywhere close to "OP". Its absorb amount is offset by Weakened Soul.

That good of a HPM that's matched by such high HPS? Which non-CD ability has similar values?

Weakened Soul does prevent PW:S from being a ridiculously overpowered spot shield, but it certainly doesn't offset the numberical superiority of PW:S.

You're comparing a single target ability to AoE abilities.
Just saying. No shit the AoEs are going to have cast times.

And yet those are the main raid heals for those classes. The fact that Disc can rely on PW:S as a raid healing tool is incredibly potent because it grants the spec such immense mobility, especially combined with Glyphed Penance.

Shields do not heal. A shield on someone at 20% is not going to help as much as an actual heal.

Except most ST heals have a cast time (i.e. not applied immediately) and do not heal for as much as PW:S shields for. When it comes to emergency spot heal/shield-ing, the 1.5s cast time or smaller heal value can make all the difference.

Again, a lot of healing spells have good scaling. PWS is not unique in that aspect. Renew scales really well with Multistrike, yet you don't see people crying for Renew to be nerfed, despite it being in the same position as PWS, being highly spammable and healing for a ton.

Lol, Renew has lower HPM and less than half the HPET of PW:S. It is not an absorb, so you can't exactly use it to pre-shield the raid. It also does its healing over 12s rather than instataneously. PW:S completely slaughters Renew.

Also, MS scaling for Renew is much less than Mastery scaling for PW:S. It's not even close.

No offense, but such statements are rather embarrassing and just showcase your lack of understanding of the issue.

PWS is not unique in being an absorb.

And with a 15 second duration, pre-shielding is limited.

Seeing as this "debate" is going in circles with one side screaming for nerfs and calling everyone else delusional, I think I'll just spare myself the time and leave. Have fun crying for Disc to get its best spell nerfed just so that you can have your healing meter e-peen back.

It is unique as a spammble ST absorb. And yes, PW:S is balanced because you can't pre-shield the whole raid. Its ability to do so on slightly less than half the raid clearly isn't strong enough. /s

For the record, my main is a Disc Priest, so I'm not crying for nerfs just for my e-peen.

- - - Updated - - -

Why said anything about meaningfully so that they are worth using? I said they can be buffed quite a bit without affecting anything because they are that bad right now. That is the definition of 'not meaningfully but substantial'.

If you're not going to buff these spells to the point whereby they are worth using over PW:S (i.e. meaningfully), then what's the point of buffing them?

It's the other way around, its not PW:S that forces disc priests to use it as their main healing tool, it is the weakness of all other spells they have that disqualifies them as main healing tools.

There's also the issue of Disc becoming even more powerful if the abilities were worth using over PW:S. If Disc can pull such numbers relying on PW:S spam, what do you think will happen if they other spells were stronger than PW:S?