Coming back to Rift, haven't played since June 2013

[Fencers]

I get what you are saying Fencers but for the min/maxxers in some of us, having souls/earrings behind paywalls IS a barrier.

That's fine. I progression raided for a long time in Rift and other MMOs- I totally understand. But know that the impulse is one driven by you, the player.

As far as I know you cannot buy the souls through in game means, correct?

You can. Almost everything that is sold in the cash shop can be bought for in-game currency or traded for. It's like SWTOR in a manner where all the CS item are fluid.

However unlike SWTOR, there is almost nothing in Rift to buy with gold (or plat rather). Well, there are decorations for your house and minor fees like 2.5 plat to travel some where. Though most of the gear and items necessary to progress your character at max level are bound to drops & secondary currencies. So it is quite easy to have thousands & thousands of plat in Rift by doing nothing but playing really. There is so little necessary to spend plat on.

The money sinks in Rift are pathetic.

[Khelendros]

You certainly can. You can buy REX with Plat from other players, those REX become credits and you buy the souls. You can also look for "gifters" in chat and just pay them x Plat and they will gift you the souls. This requires thousands of plat though, something not everyone, especially new players, have. If you are like me, it requires logging in and doing things you do not enjoy in order to get, so I may as well go to work and make money instead.

Sorry not everything can be handed to you. Either you have to work a bit for it or you buy it. There is no such thing as a free ride, Trion is a company running a business. In order to maintain Rift, they need to make money. And there needs to be some value in spending said money. They have what is considered by pretty much everyone to be the best F2P system. Sorry you feel otherwise but its not a sub based game anymore. I may not like lockboxes, in fact I hate them, but its something I have to put up with so Rift can continue to exist.

As for progression raiding. Progression raiding is people competing for world firsts. If you get to max level and join a regular raiding guild doing raiding 2 or 3 times a week, you don't need earrings. "Progression" means on a global scale, IE progressing the overall progress of the game as a whole on the current tier. In terms of Tier 1.0, that is already done as Apotheosys and Vendetta have claimed first for NA and EU respectively. Doesn't mean that a guild isn't progressing but thats normal everyday raiding at this point. Some people refer to this as bleeding edge raiding but progression raiding has been the generally used term for a bit now.

[Lathais]

Sorry not everything can be handed to you. Either you have to work a bit for it or you buy it. There is no such thing as a free ride, Trion is a company running a business. In order to maintain Rift, they need to make money. And there needs to be some value in spending said money. They have what is considered by pretty much everyone to be the best F2P system. Sorry you feel otherwise but its not a sub based game anymore. I may not like lockboxes, in fact I hate them, but its something I have to put up with so Rift can continue to exist.

As for progression raiding. Progression raiding is people competing for world firsts. If you get to max level and join a regular raiding guild doing raiding 2 or 3 times a week, you don't need earrings. "Progression" means on a global scale, IE progressing the overall progress of the game as a whole on the current tier. In terms of Tier 1.0, that is already done as Apotheosys and Vendetta have claimed first for NA and EU respectively. Doesn't mean that a guild isn't progressing but thats normal everyday raiding at this point. Some people refer to this as bleeding edge raiding but progression raiding has been the generally used term for a bit now.

I never said I did not think I should have to work for it. What I have said over and over in this thread is that it is getting to be too much. They have gone past what I feel to be reasonable. I don't mind purchasing a game(in this case purchasing things like souls at each ex-pack), or paying a sub(to get the increased xp/currency gains). However, they have started to go beyond that. Now you also need this title and these slots. They had a good balance and are now heading in the wrong direction, IMO. It's just like anything that starts to overcharge, I don't have a problem paying, I have a problem paying too much. The change to too much is slow and gradual sp gamers are taking it.

[Fencers]

Wouldn't the gear slots effectively be the cost of an expansion pack, which many are comfortable buying?

Buy xpack for $XX. Content, souls and gear slots included.
Buy souls, gear slots ala carte for $X each ($X+$X=$XX). Content included free.

I don't see the difference.

[thewallofsleep]

I get what you are saying Fencers but for the min/maxxers in some of us, having souls/earrings behind paywalls IS a barrier. As far as I know you cannot buy the souls through in game means, correct?

That barrier is a product of a certain type of player's perception of what "content" is. Any "serious" type of PvE MMORPG player is going to want every statistical advantage possible. If it's that important to them, they'll grind out the in game currency needed or pay for a sub, etc. The developer has to make money somehow, and having an optional statistical item is reasonable I suppose, as the aforementioned players will definitely cough up some cash. "Free to play" doesn't mean "charity".

[Lathais]

Wouldn't the gear slots effectively be the cost of an expansion pack, which many are comfortable buying?

Buy xpack for $XX. Content, souls and gear slots included.
Buy souls, gear slots ala carte for $X each ($X+$X=$XX). Content included free.

I don't see the difference.

The souls are basically the expansion slot to me. The pack that I see that has the souls and the equipment slots is more the equivalent of a collectors edition. I never buy collectors editions either. SL, before the extra equipment slots, it was about the same. Now it is starting to go a little too far and who knows what they will add next.

[Fencers]

But if the total costs is the same... there is no difference other than packaging. If the xpack was paid for and had new content, souls and gear slots there is no difference if each of those are ala carte but total the same.

[Lathais]

But if the total costs is the same... there is no difference other than packaging. If the xpack was paid for and had new content, souls and gear slots there is no difference if each of those are ala carte but total the same.

Yes, and they are going down a road where they are adding something additional each time. First it was souls, now it is a gear slot, what's next? I have said numerous times, as it is right now, it's acceptable, it's just that they are adding more. Then they added the increased currency caps for Patrons, what's next?

Aside from that, it's NOT the same. As it is right now, look at FFXIV:ARR. The game costs $25, or the same as the souls, plus a sub, the same as Patron. The equipment slot on top of that is NOT the same, it is MORE.

Look at SWtOR. FREE then pay a sub. The souls + equipment slots is not the same, it's MORE.

I guess, due to WoW's expansion costs being ridiculously high you could say it's the same as that.

FFXIV:ARR and SWtOR also seems to have more players, though as always, we don't know how many players Rift has, I do not think it exceeds 3 million though.

[Fencers]

This is a fascinating conversation.

Let us suppose Trion added in next expansion; new content, 4 new souls, 2 new gear slots and a new crafting profession. Say they are selling this expansion bundled together for $49.99USD.

This expansion literally would offer more things than the previous; an addition slot, new souls, content and the crafting profession.

Now let us suppose an alternative; the expansion content is free; 100%. The souls cost $19.99, gear slots $19.99 and crafting license $9.99.

The content and additional features is exactly the same in both scenarios. Why would the ala carte variant (which is cheaper in total if you do the math) be adding "TOO MUCH" if the same stuff was added in a single bundle for a single price?

It seems to me to be an almost emotional rejection of the latter, ala carte method, rather than a logical one. What defines too much? When can Trion add more stuff and it not be too much; and in what context?

Take it one step further and assume that the game operates strictly under subscription model as well wherein bundled expansions are sold. But under the ala carte scenario provides all content free to play without restriction.

So the scenario would be; $15/mo + $50 expansion & $0/mo + $50 worth of MTX.

In what manner is the system currently used in Rift unfair or consumer unfriendly whereby the cumulative cost is the same as an expansion for added features, but all content is free regardless. Further all ala carte features can be gained by 3 different means acquisition regardless of monthly expense?

I do not understand objection to business practices that are in one's own best interest.

[Lathais]

This is a fascinating conversation.

Let us suppose Trion added in next expansion; new content, 4 new souls, 2 new gear slots and a new crafting profession. Say they are selling this expansion bundled together for $49.99USD.

This expansion literally would offer more things than the previous; an addition slot, new souls, content and the crafting profession.

Now let us suppose an alternative; the expansion content is free; 100%. The souls cost $19.99, gear slots $19.99 and crafting license $9.99.

The content and additional features is exactly the same in both scenarios. Why would the ala carte variant (which is cheaper in total if you do the math) be adding "TOO MUCH" if the same stuff was added in a single bundle for a single price?

It seems to me to be an almost emotional rejection of the latter, ala carte method, rather than a logical one. What defines too much? When can Trion add more stuff and it not be too much; and in what context?

Take it one step further and assume that the game operates strictly under subscription model as well wherein bundled expansions are sold. But under the ala carte scenario provides all content free to play without restriction.

So the scenario would be; $15/mo + $50 expansion & $0/mo + $50 worth of MTX.

In what manner is the system currently used in Rift unfair or consumer unfriendly whereby the cumulative cost is the same as an expansion for added features, but all content is free regardless. Further all ala carte features can be gained by 3 different means acquisition regardless of monthly expense?

I do not understand objection to business practices that are in one's own best interest.

Well yes, if we suppose. Why are you supposing and making numbers up when real numbers already exist though?

[Fencers]

Well yes, if we suppose. Why are you supposing and making numbers up when real numbers already exist though?

Because it is an interesting thought exercise. The actual numbers are not important.

[Lathais]

Because it is an interesting thought exercise. The actual numbers are not important.

Ah, I see, since the real numbers are against your case they are not important. Ok. I guess we are done here.

[alturic]

I'm downloading Rift at the moment and the thing I don't like about F2P games is that sure, they offer subscriptions and sure they give you a little something for paying every month, but you still have to buy little things.

I'm actually super confused as to whether or not Rift has gone P2W since with just these Void Source Accelerator things seem to have caused a huge (no pun intended) rift between Trion and a chunk of it's playerbase.

The question is: outside of paying $24.99 for the expansion (to get the earring slots unlocked) is everything else completely (gear, upgrades, etc) obtainable via raiding? Is it all obtainable via raiding but "quicker" if you drop cash?

[Fencers]

The question is: outside of paying $24.99 for the expansion (to get the earring slots unlocked) is everything else completely (gear, upgrades, etc) obtainable via raiding? Is it all obtainable via raiding but "quicker" if you drop cash?

There is nothing you need to buy at all. Everything can be gained in some fashion by playing the game. Paying just get your there quicker- btut only to some degree, some things still require rep, levels, rank, etc even if you buy the associated item.

The earrings slots are critical, but nothing else is actually. Not even the souls. As has been said already, there are multiple means to acquire the gear slots.

If you really want mounts, costumes and acceleration there is that for offer via cash shop. But that is a necessity one is creating for themselves.

Few sub, B2P or F2P MMOs in the Western market operate without convenience or vanity cash shop items. It is inaccurate to posit "the thing I don't like about F2P..." because it is not the domain of F2P MMOs to offer any of these type of cash shop benefits.

MMOs will likely never have payment exclusively as in the late 90s/early 00s. Games no longer do business in that manner by in large.

Ah, I see, since the real numbers are against your case they are not important.

I do not understand how this is possible or relevant. The abstract concept is what is paramount.

If the logical basis here fails theoretically, then it fails in practice too. If what you are really saying is that the costs is too expensive for you, that is fair.

Though I do not believe the costs of video games is ever relevant. So there is only so much empathy I have to arguments of affordability as it is imply not in purview to have to be concerned with the cost of playing video games.

[Deleted]

Lol, this is amazing. Basically Fencers, you are telling people your version of what you decided that content is, or what is player created barriers or not. You're desperately trying to be objective, but you're as subjective as it gets.

Mounts, Classes etc is not content? Uh, yes it is. Of course it is. Everything in a game is content... it's in the word itself.
"Impulse is driven by you"? - That statement is completely nonsensical since everything is within the game. The only sensical statement would be whether I chose to even play the game or not.

You are being so condescending and self confident about being the ultimate authority on what is and what isn't, while being completely oblivious to reality, that it's making me cringe.

[Khelendros]

I'm downloading Rift at the moment and the thing I don't like about F2P games is that sure, they offer subscriptions and sure they give you a little something for paying every month, but you still have to buy little things.

I'm actually super confused as to whether or not Rift has gone P2W since with just these Void Source Accelerator things seem to have caused a huge (no pun intended) rift between Trion and a chunk of it's playerbase.

The question is: outside of paying $24.99 for the expansion (to get the earring slots unlocked) is everything else completely (gear, upgrades, etc) obtainable via raiding? Is it all obtainable via raiding but "quicker" if you drop cash?

You don't need to spend any money if you are a patron. I've never had to. The only time I spend money on the shop is for stuff that I don't really need or to buy REX to give away on livestreams and such. You can get VSA's with currency, you don't need to buy them with cash.

Mounts, Classes etc is not content? Uh, yes it is. Of course it is. Everything in a game is content... it's in the word itself.
"Impulse is driven by you"? - That statement is completely nonsensical since everything is within the game. The only sensical statement would be whether I chose to even play the game or not.

No its not content. It meets no definition of content. Its fluff. You don't need it to do anything and it serves no purpose beyond the visual so thus is not defined as content. Any developer will tell you this.

[alturic]

You don't need to spend any money if you are a patron. I've never had to. The only time I spend money on the shop is for stuff that I don't really need or to buy REX to give away on livestreams and such. You can get VSA's with currency, you don't need to buy them with cash.


No its not content. It meets no definition of content. Its fluff. You don't need it to do anything and it serves no purpose beyond the visual so thus is not defined as content. Any developer will tell you this.

Just being a patron doesn't "give" you (sure, you can grind it out, which for earrings I hear is fairly time-consuming?) the mandatory earring slots. I'll admint, "mandatory" depending on if you raid of course.

[Lathais]

I do not understand how this is possible or relevant. The abstract concept is what is paramount.

If the logical basis here fails theoretically, then it fails in practice too. If what you are really saying is that the costs is too expensive for you, that is fair.

Though I do not believe the costs of video games is ever relevant. So there is only so much empathy I have to arguments of affordability as it is imply not in purview to have to be concerned with the cost of playing video games.

How do I get it through to you. I mean, I already posted 2 other examples of games, one which is P2P and one which is F2P that are in the same genre and have more players than Rift by using better models. Rift costs more than other games in the same genre. If you do not understand how that is relevant.....

[willowe]

One doesn't actually need the new souls to do anything, for what it is worth. Extra souls simply provide more class combination options. But there is no content that restrict a Warrior from playing because they lack the Liberator soul.

Tell that to anyone who didn't have Tempest and wanted to raid post 2.4.

[Fencers]

Lol, this is amazing. Basically Fencers, you are telling people your version of what you decided that content is, or what is player created barriers or not. You're desperately trying to be objective, but you're as subjective as it gets.

My opinions are of course subjective. I am not sure why you would get the impression otherwise; "I think...", "It seems to me..." "I feel..."

Pretty clear I am stating my opinion. However, if you [the general you] talk about gameplay that is on you to prove objectively. Gameplay can only ever be objective. How one feels about gameplay is of no nevermind.

"I need a cash shop mount to play Rift!", okay fine. Can you prove this is so? Can you prove that the gameplay is unplayable otherwise? That one is restricted from content unless they have this cash shop mount/trinket/bauble/hairstyle/etc?

One wouldn't get everything "free" sans cash shop anyway regardless of business model.

That is on you to prove objectively. Not me.

Mounts, Classes etc is not content?

Those are assets. Content is actual modus of playing a game; gameplay, which is the collective total of all rules that govern the absolute operation of a video game. You can not make or play a game otherwise- there is no such possibility. Gameplay is a game- total and absolute.

"Impulse is driven by you"? - That statement is completely nonsensical since everything is within the game.

Games actually have compulsive systems designed to require player engagement to complete the goals as outlined by gameplay regardless of player desire.

An easy example of this is like a lockout. The device is used to meter out access over time. Players typically can not subvert this device and thus the desire to progress along a linear path in limited linear RPG systems (for example) is not directly created by the player. It is goal of the gameplay itself and would be so regardless of player attitude or perception.

Tell that to anyone who didn't have Tempest and wanted to raid post 2.4.

Like husband who raided as a mostly Champion-based DPS?

Again for this to objectively true, which is on you to prove, the game would have to exclude anyone without the Tempest soul. Which Rift does not do- but if it does than I'd be keenly interested in knowing what gameplay restricts non-Tempest Warriors from participation expressly as a rule of operation.

I mean, I already posted 2 other examples of games, one which is P2P and one which is F2P that are in the same genre and have more players than Rift by using better models.

Better is subjective. But I too love SWTOR's method at the moment. However, I already addressed the inequity of the comparison indirectly. The content in Rift is Free regardless of sub or F2P. In SWTOR the content is expressly restriction, and actively so, without a sub and expansion packs.

The limits in SWTOR are absolute. The game will prevent you from accessing certain content, features and assets directly. A message will literally pop up on screen saying so.

Rift costs more than other games in the same genre. If you do not understand how that is relevant.....

I understand why cost is relevant. I do not think costs should be relevant- which I stated as my opinion above.

I believe one should only be concerned with the gameplay operation of a title. Nothing else at all.

Should one not want to play a game despite it's operation I have no interest or incentive to persuade them otherwise. I am quite okay and supportive of players taking their money & time where they feel it is valued most.