Hybrid DPS vs Pure DPS Classes

[Saberstrike]

For example we had our arcane mage in the soaking group on butcher yesterday. His dps was really low. So we switched him with a demo lock and suddenly it worked and we killed the boss.

But see, you just upgraded to a guy that does more dps. You don't really care for what else the mage brings to the table, if his dps is lower then he is inferior to the warlock. That system is just disgusting. =/

Wouldn't it be more interesting if, say, it was a choice between mage with less dps / more control via polymorph, slows and possibly a few other things versus a warlock who brought higher damage / summoning portal / health stone? Nope, none of that is relevant, it's just dps. So honestly, the current system is as brute force as it gets.

My issue isn't with someone doing more % damage than me, my issues is that if they're doing more % damage than me then no matter what class I play I just can't bring anything that will compensate for it, and that is why I feel like hybrid vs pure problem is still relevant. Not because I want paladins and druids to be stuck in healbot role but because I want more interesting options for the classes that were from the ground up designed to be more than just blatant dps machines.

[l33t]

at least that person could then heal or tank but if a pure is worse there is no reason to bring them and they don't have another option.

Jesus christ, I wonder how much time will pass till people like you will finally realise the simple fact that saying that a "hybrid" class can "easily" switch specs is almost the same as saying that your precious "pure" can easily switch class to one of those which deal moar dps. People should not be forced to play role they don't want to, just because all damage dealing spots are filled with "pures".

Roles should be competitive, not specs.

[Segasik]

Eh probably a tad bias but I believe a pure dps class should never be the lowest, they should be mid to top tier for dps. If all 3 of my dps specs are at or extremely close to the bottom I am virtually useless. At least hybrid classes, should they choose to do so, can switch to a healing spec or a tanking spec to be more useful. Pure dps don't have that choice unless you want them to play another class entirely which is moronic.

YES becuase Rerolling from let's say Enh Shaman to Ele shaman is any different then Rerolling from Rogue to Mage in terms of playstyle ... oh wait.
So nope.
Hybrid classes dont want to be forced to switch to "other specs" They want to be viable.

Pure dps classes has 3 specs to juggle and you can pick best suitable for the given encounter

So unless you are on the dead bottom as a Rogue in all 3 specs on each encounter of the game....dont complain
(btw you are not)

[Deleted]

Y

Pure dps classes has 3 specs to juggle and you can pick best suitable for the given encounter

So unless you are on the dead bottom as a Rogue in all 3 specs on each encounter of the game....dont complain
(btw you are not)

currently, the only class that is overall below locks atm is rogues.

[Otimus]

Far as I'm concerned, it should be like this:

Pures should be within 5% of each other, average DPS.

Hybrids should be about 5% less than the average, in their DPS specs, if their specs have a whole lot of useful utility compared to pures. If not, then they should be in that same range up there. You know, balance and all that.

I know nothing of how anything performs in anything, so that's just my ultra layman's opinion on that.

[Talen]

at least that person could then heal or tank but if a pure is worse there is no reason to bring them and they don't have another option.

The problem lies with the entire concept of pures.

Pures don't work unless there is some sort of hybrid tax to compensate for the additional versatility. As it is, right now, the main advantages to being a pure are 1: you won't be asked to tank/heal and 2: flavor and self image.


I don't think that is enough and I don't think we will ever see another pure added to the game.

As for the current pures - the solution is to add a fourth spec

Mage: Chronomancer Healer
Warlock: Demon Hunter Tank
Hunter: Melee DPS? Pet Based Tank? Nature based healer?
Rogue: Ranger Ranged DPS. Bard Healer/Support

The problem here is that the desire to avoid being asked to tank/heal is real. While some players would welcome the additional breadth, others would loathe that they are now being pestered to switch roles.

EJL

[Karnak]

4 pure classes, 7 hybrid classes. Pure class players that make posts like this want to have 60% of raid slots reserved for the 4 pure classes and let the other 7 classes fight for the remaining 40% of slots.

They also use simplistic and easily falsified arguments such as claiming that hybrid players can just switch roles and why would you ever bring a pure when a hybrid can heal or tank? You know when a hybrid is asked to heal or tank? Never. That is when. The last time I healed on my Shaman was in Icecrown, and I was healing an NPC dragon. I was doing it because as somebody who was used to DPSing I was better at it than most of our healers, so the healer captain tapped me as one of the healers each time. The last time I healed the raid regularly was in early Naxx before the healers geared up, then I was told to go Elemental for the buffs I brought. If I had the buffs I bring now with the DPS Elemental did then (hybrid tax) I would not have been told to go Elemental, I would have been told to get my Mage and the fact that we had a lot of Mages wouldn't have meant a thing.

If I were to tell my raid, Shaman DPS isn't top notch right now so I am going to heal tonight I would be told no, come as Elemental or don't come at all, healer slots are filled. Tank slots are even more limited.

- - - Updated - - -

Far as I'm concerned, it should be like this:

Pures should be within 5% of each other, average DPS.

Hybrids should be about 5% less than the average, in their DPS specs, if their specs have a whole lot of useful utility compared to pures. If not, then they should be in that same range up there. You know, balance and all that.

I know nothing of how anything performs in anything, so that's just my ultra layman's opinion on that.

There is no hybrid that brings more utility than pures anymore. Mages have stronger raid healing utility than Elemental Shaman do. Comparing my Elemental Shaman to my Mage, my Shaman brings 5% Haste and my Mage brings 5% crit and better raid healing. Both have Heroism/Time Warp and can remove curses. That being the case, if the Mage does more damage than the Elemental Shaman, why ever bring an Elemental Shaman?

[Asiel]

Hybrid taxing only serves to make those specs non-viable as they were in Vanilla. Stop crying about your meters and play better.

[nonameelf]

Far as I'm concerned, it should be like this:

Pures should be within 5% of each other, average DPS.

Hybrids should be about 5% less than the average, in their DPS specs, if their specs have a whole lot of useful utility compared to pures. If not, then they should be in that same range up there. You know, balance and all that.

I know nothing of how anything performs in anything, so that's just my ultra layman's opinion on that.

How would they measure utility? How would you compare a ret paladin's hand spells to a hunter's mobile ranged DPS?

[Linneth]

Hybrid classes dont want to be forced to switch to "other specs" They want to be viable.

Pure dps classes has 3 specs to juggle and you can pick best suitable for the given encounter

So unless you are on the dead bottom as a Rogue in all 3 specs on each encounter of the game....dont complain
(btw you are not)

So, you are telling me that an hybrid can sit in a single spec and be competitive while the Rogue has to swap between three specs which use different weapons and have completely different secondary stat priorities?

[TheWindWalker]

currently, the only class that is overall below locks atm is rogues.

There's like three or four different class subforums all claiming they are the bottom at the moment on at least a few bosses.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

DPS is DPS. It is pretty stupid for anyone that really raids to be asking for a ton of classes to suddenly be weakened because they aren't "pure". In fact that sounds more like some fanatical Nazi propaganda rather than a real reason. As a guild master and raid leader all I care about is individuals doing their best DPS possible. No my guild will never be Paragon. That is a 100% intentional. But because we don't plan to be anywhere above US 500 (which is about where we typically hover around +/- a 100, and with a very casual approach to raiding we consider respectable).

If you plan to be in a world first style guild or regional top 150-200ish guild than you might want to consider it is your play-style that forces you to switch specs, weapons, and all that to be competitive and not a hybrid or pure DPS class debates. To be on the bleeding knife edge means you make those sacrifices. If you aren't on that bleeding edge than you are likely wasting your time because all these things are doable without being at the absolute top because really you only have to fit within a margin of a percentage.

[Lemons]

It is pretty stupid for anyone that really raids to be asking for a ton of classes to suddenly be weakened because they aren't "pure".

Nice straw man bro...no one is asking for that. We want buffs for pures...not nerfs to hybrids.

[Martymark]

Since paladins, monks, and druids have 3 specs, they should be doing 10% less than pures in any of their roles right?

[Oopsmezedya]

The juggernaut could just switch specs to his other working spec, because there's no such thing as a pure when every class has 3+ specs, no class in the game has all worthless specs, dps still bring their buffs and utility, tanks can still do tons of aoe damage and be brought for offtanking, and healers all bring utility and good healing

[Senka]

Roles should be competitive, not specs.

Thank you. People still think specs aren't basically separate classes when they actually have been since Wrath. I really have no clue what the WoW devs meant when they say they wanted to "bring back some class identity" when they somewhat overhauled the specs in Cataclysm and Mists.
The way I see it, there are now 35 classes in the game, not 11: 11*3 + Guardian + Gladiator. I don't really get how this is hard to understand.