New Raid Finder practice?

[Deleted]

Not gonna quote because phone, but I'll just throw this out: There is already endgame content for those who don't want to organize. Its called LFR. In order to step up to the next level you need to spend the extra effort. Wanna know what your argument sounds like? "I can't be arsed to actually put effort, yet I want to do everything I want. I want to eat the cake and have it" .
You're nothing but another casual suffering from a terrible entitlement syndrome.

[jakj]

Not gonna quote because phone, but I'll just throw this out: There is already endgame content for those who don't want to organize. Its called LFR. In order to step up to the next level you need to spend the extra effort. Wanna know what your argument sounds like? "I can't be arsed to actually put effort, yet I want to do everything I want. I want to eat the cake and have it" .
You're nothing but another casual suffering from a terrible entitlement syndrome.

And you're nothing but another elitist who is confusing "effort and skill requirement" with "pain in the ass to manage". "step up to the next level" implies that it's somehow skill, as in "play better", but it is not. Having to be organized and scheduled to raid outside of LFR is The Nature Of The Beast, but it is not something to be treasured and bragged about: It's just how it is. You act like being able to plan your life around a videogame somehow makes you a better person.

[Dilbon]

There are two difficulty levels above normal, that should be plenty for putting effort. Normal should be Naxx10 or OS without dragons easy.

[Nitros14]

Kargath: Kite him into a fire pillar. Otherwise Patchwerk with even less mechanics. - nothing about patchwork requires a tank / heal / dps group to go into a separate area & kill specific adds. Nor is there anything on the ground to deal with, or watch out for for the rest of the group. HM 1, Naxx 0

Butcher: Make two groups, have someone move into a group to switch who's soaking. - certainly the simplest mechanical fight in HM, yet requires more execution than quite a few fights in Naxx. One person doing this wrong will absolutely wipe the raid.

Brackenspore: Two people run around with a flamethrower. The rest of the raid kills some adds, maybe stand near the mushrooms once in a while. There is an add kill order, positioning of dps between the boss and spores, a tank swap that is a bit more tricky than the normal situation, healers who have to trigger one mushroom at the correct time as well as keeping everyone alive, and flamethrowers have an increasingly difficult job if the rest of the raid doesn't perform well. Sorry, this fight is off the chart compared to anything in Naxx.

Tectus: Run away with red clouds. Move out of circles on the ground. That's it. Four Horsemen had more going on than this Again, add kill order in phase 1, boss(es) can only die during specific times, and boss splitting while keeping all his abilities? Heigan is probably the only other fight in Naxx that is remotely close to the movement needed here, and there's about half as much going on overall.

On and on... I just don't see any way that you can compare the two instances.

We're talking about the same instance right? This is NORMAL highmaul. The raid just came out.

On kargath: So a healer and a tank run to the centre on chain hurl. There's hardly anything that'll tax your brain up there. You could get hit by every bomb on normal and be fine.

Butcher: Literally two people have to do anything special to execute this fight. They run in at a number of stacks. Yes if you do it wrong you'll die, but that's no different than someone standing in the raid with mutagen on Grobbulus or your kiters dying on Gluth. I've killed this fight with the melee dead for the last 20% though.

Brackenspore: The add kill order and positioning of dps between boss and spores do not matter on normal. Perhaps you're thinking of heroic. Our first brackenspore kill we didn't even trigger a mushroom. I've pugged this as well, and while with undergeared healers you do have to trigger a mushroom, positioning and add kill order still are basically irrelevant. I could pretend Noth or Gothik were difficult and say "You had to kill skeleton mages before warriors and unrelenting riders before death knights" but they weren't and you didn't. Same with Brackenspore.

Tectus: The bosses dying during specific times is 100% ignorable. Just dps the boss it'll die. What you have to do does not change when the boss splits. You still run with red clouds, move out of circles. That's all there is.

I don't mean to come off as condescending and rude and I admit this post probably does, but let's be honest here. Normal Highmaul is not that complex. Flex Siege of Orgrimmar was a more complex raid I feel.

[melodramocracy]

Brackenspore: The add kill order and positioning of dps between boss and spores do not matter on normal. Perhaps you're thinking of heroic. Our first brackenspore kill we didn't even trigger a mushroom. I've pugged this as well, and while with undergeared healers you do have to trigger a mushroom, positioning and add kill order still are basically irrelevant. I could pretend Noth or Gothik were difficult and say "You had to kill skeleton mages before warriors and unrelenting riders before death knights" but they weren't and you didn't. Same with Brackenspore.

Maybe at some point you'll have the fortune of encountering this boss and actually hitting the enrage timer (yes, there is one), or wiping because the group has been completely overrun by moss.... or have 2 fungals alive at once. Been there, done all of that.

All sorts of fun things can happen. When everyone knows what they're doing, of course it's not a difficult fight, but there's still more to attend to here than in any Naxx fight.

[Alroxas]

I've noticed over the past week that when I "petition" to join a group using the pre-made group option, I either get auto declined or am declined with in minutes...

There are many reasons why you might have been declined. It could be that they are looking for a specific kind of DPS (ranged vs melee) or they want to limit the number of people already competing for certain armor groups (a cloth heavy group might favor a plate or mail DPS over another cloth DPS). Or there are less savory reasons that other posters have commented on.

As for fight difficulty, the problem again is relative gear to difficulty. A group averaging 660+ shouldn't have much difficulty in HM Normal (why they are there in the first place is beyond me), but a group averaging 630 might have more difficulty in HM Normal, especially towards the later bosses. Now I'm not saying that it's impossible for a sub-geared group to clear the content, heck that's what world first progression raiders do, but it is more difficult than what your average person is willing to do.

In the end, the solution is what various posters have commented on. If you can't find a group that accepts you (for whatever reason) then make your own. If you refuse to do so, then you're at the whims of someone else because they made the group. The raid leader doesn't have to be fair or nice.

[ZakAtack]

In general, when someone is setting up a pug and they've already cleared the raid themselves, they just want a clean, easy run. Sure, you could take the word of that 638 player who says they know the fights. Or you can take the 647 who has the achievement to prove it. I have seen some groups saying they need people to help out on guild runs, or to expect wipes though.

Personally, I wiped a bunch clearing normal and 6/7 heroic with my guild. During the holidays, raids are canceled. So when using the group finder, I check when I get accepted if it's farm or progression for the group. I worked on clearing it, now I just want clean easy kills.

It sounds rough and mean, but it's true. They're taking the initiative and responsibility to run the group, so they can set the rules.

[Mahourai]

There are two difficulty levels above normal, that should be plenty for putting effort. Normal should be Naxx10 or OS without dragons easy.

Most people here would say that Kel'Thuzad 10 was overtuned if they were attempting it in blues because he doesn't just fall over and there are mechanics you have to obey.

[zvvl]

I have 7/7 Heroic on farm with my guild and have 653 ilvl and I can never get into a normal Imperator group. Even if I link achievements like they ask very rarely do I get an invite and the groups I do get an invite to usually consist of people who pop mines 10x over and don't remove players who consistently fuck up. It's a bit irritating but at least I don't need gear, just use it as practice.

[Suineg]

Maybe at some point you'll have the fortune of encountering this boss and actually hitting the enrage timer (yes, there is one), or wiping because the group has been completely overrun by moss.... or have 2 fungals alive at once. Been there, done all of that.

All sorts of fun things can happen. When everyone knows what they're doing, of course it's not a difficult fight, but there's still more to attend to here than in any Naxx fight.

You are dismissing his premise that the bare mechanics are no harder based on your raid failing? That isn't fair.

I am 7/7 on heroic and normal and the normal is on two characters and about to have a third running normal.

I use LFM to pug a considerable amount of players. The amount of people applying to these raids that would be boat anchors is astronomical. The amount of people that can't or don't read the advertisement is just as high, two healers doesn't mean DPS. The rest of you just might not shine while someone else applies that does. Some do shine but I don't need a thirteenth plate class so I pick up a cloth. I have to plan for group composition both to optimize loot for everyone and to ensure we have the right classes for the fights.

The amount of effort expended into this is rough.

Now the raid is formed. Half of you are sitting in your garrison expecting a summon that you don't take when sent out. You forgot flasks, you can't join mumble, you can join mumble but as the tank can't use your mic because your girlfriend is sleeping next to you, or your mic is broke and you don't know why, or your mic isn't broken and we wish it was because you have gangsta rap at 100 decibels, or you only have fifteen minutes to play for some reason, and the list is endless.

Loot, you won't stay in the raid if it's personal but that guy won't be in a raid with ten plate unless it is. This other guy wants to roll NBG, that Druid rolls on a second BoE and wins it and leaves the raid.

I still run an average of five successful 6/7 pugs a week. I still take a guild run through once a week with bare minimum gear and clear in two hours. This tier isn't hard and you not being accepted into raids is not personal at all. Unless you send me a hundred tells begging.

We aren't going to get into the hate and "elitism" of when you have to kick people from raids for pulling no discernible heals or DPS or blowing up mines or running into tiger cages the last three pulls. We won't get into that new guy that joins a raid at 4/7 and has an all new strat for every fight he wants to discuss for fifteen minutes in chat.