Common Sense is Dead!!!

[hellosaltygoodness]

sounds like a bunch of conservative shrieking to me, although the part about disciplining kids nauseated me a bit, as most conservatives think hitting children is "common sense" "discipline", so it kind of rubs me as a call to parents that they should stop being those sissy liberals and start hitting their kids more.

[Kasierith]

McDonalds required the franchiser to keep the coffee at 180F. Now they've lowered it but it's still hot. It is a frivolous case won by aggressive lawyers who picked the right jury, the defense didn't know what they were doing. There are literally dozens of things you have in your house that will injure you if used improperly, should you be awarded money each time you cut yourself on a carving knife or burn yourself with a clothes iron?

That the franchise had it at a temperature that caused third degree burns is not a defense. It was, in fact, one of the most damning pieces of evidence leading to McDonalds being charged, since they had a corporate policy with a high potential to cause harm. Mcdonalds didn't have a great defense, because there was no defense to be had; their past history in hot coffee over the past decade was filled with incidents where the danger of the temperature was brought to their attention and ignored, even through court cases, sealing in precedent that this was the result of negligence on their part - https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

This particular part demonstrates how going rabble rabble frivulous rabble! on this case is ludicrous -

Mrs. Liebeck offered to settle the case for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses and lost income. But McDonald’s never offered more than $800, so the case went to trial.

[Keilith]

McDonalds required the franchiser to keep the coffee at 180F. Now they've lowered it but it's still hot. It is a frivolous case won by aggressive lawyers who picked the right jury, the defense didn't know what they were doing. There are literally dozens of things you have in your house that will injure you if used improperly, should you be awarded money each time you cut yourself on a carving knife or burn yourself with a clothes iron?

this case was 20 years ago but it was no means frivolous. One the woman was over 80 years old. 2 she was a passenger in a parked car. 3 the coffee was hot enough to melt her jeans to her crotch causing 3rd degree burns and requiring a skin graft. 4 she only asked for HELP with her medical bills for said graft. The reason McDonalds lost this lawsuit was she was one of about 5,000 known burn victems from their coffee they knew the coffee was kept too hot. The jury tried to award her millions in damages but the judge awarded her 600,000 and she did not even take that. She settled out of court with mcdonalds for an undisclosed amount to wich she is not even allowed to say. During the trial McDonalds dragged her name through the mud and started a media circus coining the phrase frivolous lawsuit trying to turn public opinion. But make one thing clear. She only wanted help with her medical bills from a cup of coffee so hot it melted denim.

[Deleted]

Hubcaps policy: Now one carving knife with every happy meal.

[Independent voter]

damning pieces of evidence leading to McDonalds being charged, since they had a corporate policy with a high potential to cause harm. Mcdonalds didn't have a great defense, because there was no defense to be had
This particular part demonstrates how going rabble rabble frivulous rabble! on this case is ludicrous -

Hot coffee is just that, hot. MD's did add "HOT" label warnings but isn't that ridiculous? It's like putting a "HOT" label on fire.

I think it's really popular for the left to go after a big corporation.

There's a Wikipedia page about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

"In 1994, a spokesman for the National Coffee Association said that the temperature of McDonald's coffee conformed to industry standards.[2] An "admittedly unscientific" survey by the LA Times that year found that coffee was served between 157 and 182 °F, and that two locations tested served hotter coffee than McDonald's.[30]

Since Liebeck, McDonald's has not reduced the service temperature of its coffee. McDonald's policy today is to serve coffee between 80–90 °C (176–194 °F),[31] relying on more sternly-worded warnings on cups made of rigid foam to avoid future liability, though it continues to face lawsuits over hot coffee.[31][32] The Specialty Coffee Association supports improved packaging methods rather than lowering the temperature at which coffee is served. The association has successfully aided the defense of subsequent coffee burn cases.[33] Similarly, as of 2004, Starbucks sells coffee at 175–185 °F (79–85 °C), and the executive director of the Specialty Coffee Association of America reported that the standard serving temperature is 160–185 °F (71–85 °C). Retailers today sell coffee as hot or hotter than the coffee that burned Stella Liebeck."

[Kasierith]

Hot coffee is just that, hot.

I think for a while there it was really popular for the left to go after a big corporation.

There's a Wikipedia page about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

"In 1994, a spokesman for the National Coffee Association said that the temperature of McDonald's coffee conformed to industry standards.[2] An "admittedly unscientific" survey by the LA Times that year found that coffee was served between 157 and 182 °F, and that two locations tested served hotter coffee than McDonald's.[30]

Yes, a coffee spokesman defending coffee and a random survey that not even the surveyers themselves had much confidence in. Forgive me if your wondrous, miraculous revelations don't sway me from the legal basis why the McDonalds suit went the way it did. I'm supposing from this that you don't even understand what the term precedent means?

[Garnier Fructis]

I've read that part before about how coffee is served nowadays, but I still don't understand why they have to do it that way. Can anyone actually drink it at that temperature?

And no, it's not just hot coffee. Its scalding coffee.

[spinner981]

Common sense is the ignorant supposition that cultural knowledge is inherent knowledge, and is based on an absurd lack of sociological insight rather than intellectual prowess. There is no such thing as "common sense."

And so, people choose to not think at all and claim they just think 'differently'.

sounds like a bunch of conservative shrieking to me, although the part about disciplining kids nauseated me a bit, as most conservatives think hitting children is "common sense" "discipline", so it kind of rubs me as a call to parents that they should stop being those sissy liberals and start hitting their kids more.

It makes me nauseous when people equate spankings to abuse. The point is that parents simply don't discipline their children as much as they used to, physical spankings or not, for whatever reason.

[hellosaltygoodness]

Hot coffee is just that, hot. MD's did add "HOT" label warnings but isn't that ridiculous? It's like putting a "HOT" label on fire.

I think it's really popular for the left to go after a big corporation.

There's a Wikipedia page about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

"In 1994, a spokesman for the National Coffee Association said that the temperature of McDonald's coffee conformed to industry standards.[2] An "admittedly unscientific" survey by the LA Times that year found that coffee was served between 157 and 182 °F, and that two locations tested served hotter coffee than McDonald's.[30]

Since Liebeck, McDonald's has not reduced the service temperature of its coffee. McDonald's policy today is to serve coffee between 80–90 °C (176–194 °F),[31] relying on more sternly-worded warnings on cups made of rigid foam to avoid future liability, though it continues to face lawsuits over hot coffee.[31][32] The Specialty Coffee Association supports improved packaging methods rather than lowering the temperature at which coffee is served. The association has successfully aided the defense of subsequent coffee burn cases.[33] Similarly, as of 2004, Starbucks sells coffee at 175–185 °F (79–85 °C), and the executive director of the Specialty Coffee Association of America reported that the standard serving temperature is 160–185 °F (71–85 °C). Retailers today sell coffee as hot or hotter than the coffee that burned Stella Liebeck."

how is their continuing to knowingly sell coffee at temperatures they know to be dangerous to their own customers a defense of mcdonald's exactly?

[Kasierith]

I've read that part before about how coffee is served nowadays, but I still don't understand why they have to do it that way. Can anyone actually drink it at that temperature?

And no, it's not just hot coffee. Its scalding coffee.

More rapid dispersion of granules and thus faster production of coffee, most likely. Which is why the range is so wide - the temperature depends on how fresh it is.

[spinner981]

how is their continuing to knowingly sell coffee at temperatures they know to be dangerous to their own customers a defense of mcdonald's exactly?

Suggesting that companies selling potentially dangerous things to customers is some freaky occurrence?

[Budong]

Common sense is the ignorant supposition that cultural knowledge is inherent knowledge, and is based on an absurd lack of sociological insight rather than intellectual prowess. There is no such thing as "common sense."

Some people so completely miss the point.

[Revi]

how is their continuing to knowingly sell coffee at temperatures they know to be dangerous to their own customers a defense of mcdonald's exactly?

I don't see why they need a defense? It's on the cup, so anyone who somehow didn't realize that coffee was hot will now see it written in big letters. If they neither read the cup nor have any idea that coffee is served hot, that's not anyone elses fault.
You don't sue knife retailers when someone cuts themselves with it because it was "too sharp", because at some point people are responsible for their own stupid actions.

[Kasierith]

Oh, and as for McDonalds not changing their temperature... they're still getting sued and paying settlements for it. The problem being that to them, the profit of speeding through millions of cups of coffee per day is far greater than the settlement cost. They know its dangerous. They know that even their disclaimer isn't a legal defense. They don't give a damn.

[hellosaltygoodness]

Suggesting that companies selling potentially dangerous things to customers is some freaky occurrence?

i never said it was a "freaky occurrence," as businesses endangering both their employees and their customers in the pursuit of profit is unfortunately the norm rather than the exception, particularly in nations with fewer government regulations. i questioned how you find their continuation to endanger their customers defensible.

[lastingso]

Why I can't help but laughing....

[Kasierith]

I don't see why they need a defense? It's on the cup, so anyone who somehow didn't realize that coffee was hot will now see it written in big letters. If they neither read the cup nor have any idea that coffee is served hot, that's not anyone elses fault.
You don't sue knife retailers when someone cuts themselves with it because it was "too sharp", because at some point people are responsible for their own stupid actions.

It doesn't matter what disclaimer you put on something, if it can be established that you recognized that the product you provide has the potential to cause grievous damage and were negligent in responding to this danger.

Your premise is basically the same as someone placing a warning label on a jack in the box: "warning: may be holding dagger and stab child in face." and then expecting this to be a legal defense when said jack pops out and stabs the child in the face. "It said so on the box!" is not a perfectly valid legal defense.

[Independent voter]

You know who pays for these frivolous lawsuits ultimately? It's us, higher insurance prices, higher prices at retailers. Much of the cost of a ladder that you buy at Home Depot is made up of lawsuits. Really? You climbed up the ladder and fell off and it's the ladder's fault? How? You didn't know ladders are dangerous?

[Garnier Fructis]

More rapid dispersion of granules and thus faster production of coffee, most likely. Which is why the range is so wide - the temperature depends on how fresh it is.

Well that makes sense.

It makes me nauseous when people equate spankings to abuse. The point is that parents simply don't discipline their children as much as they used to, physical spankings or not, for whatever reason.

Abuse or not, some parents need to accept the harsh reality that there are some kids on whom it just won't work.

[Kasierith]

You know who pays for these frivolous lawsuits ultimately? It's us, higher insurance prices, higher prices at retailers. Much of the cost of a ladder that you buy at Home Depot is made up of lawsuits. Really? You climbed up the ladder and fell off and it's the ladder's fault? How? You didn't know ladders are dangerous?

Now you're just throwing out random non sequiturs instead of actually responding to any of the points made to you.