HC Imperator

[jarbulldog]

First I want to say this is not a 10 vs 25 thread.

I know during the holidays other guilds will have this issue as well, a lot of people away.

Last night when we were doing HC Imperator, we only had 11 people.

We felt that the fight was extremely more difficult with 11 people then the normal 23 we have.

One example that we noticed was each of the small adds in intermission were hitting the tank for 25k magical damage. With with 23 people they hit the tank for 26k.

I don't think they should be hitting for 1k less with 12 less people. They should be hitting for a lot less.

There were number of other issues we discovered that were not scaling correctly. I will have to look at logs when I get home.

Anyone else noticing when they are doing 10-12 man in HC that it is significantly harder then when you have over 20?

Before some people say we'll get more people. Go try the fight with 10-12 people and you see that the scaling is not corect.

[Ninotchka]

Throughout the whole instance it is harder the fewer people you have. Have you done the math for Butcher? And it still sends 5 people into the stands on Kargath whether you have 10 or 30 people. And it's possible to have both your healers running from Crystalline Barrage when Tectus splits in 2. And you have 1/3 of your dps in flamethrowers in 10man Brack. And stacking everyone in the raid for the shout - the divisor doesn't change even when the dividend is far smaller. And Koragh - you end up having to have a far higher percentage of your dps acting as soakers, and far higher percentage chance of your healers being hit with the silencer.

This instance is not designed for 10 people. It's designed for 20, and they will grudgingly allow you to attempt it with fewer people but the skill requirement grows with every warm body that you shrink by.

[Deleted]

Throughout the whole instance it is harder the fewer people you have. Have you done the math for Butcher? And it still sends 5 people into the stands on Kargath whether you have 10 or 30 people. And it's possible to have both your healers running from Crystalline Barrage when Tectus splits in 2. And you have 1/3 of your dps in flamethrowers in 10man Brack. And stacking everyone in the raid for the shout - the divisor doesn't change even when the dividend is far smaller. And Koragh - you end up having to have a far higher percentage of your dps acting as soakers, and far higher percentage chance of your healers being hit with the silencer.

This instance is not designed for 10 people. It's designed for 20, and they will grudgingly allow you to attempt it with fewer people but the skill requirement grows with every warm body that you shrink by.

Kargath: does it matter if half of your raid (in case 10man) is up or down? what is important is the health of both boss and adds (and I guess they are well scaled, if that's the case, it doesn't matter 10 or 30).
Butcher: scales in function the people, I don't see harder neither 10 nor 30 people.
Tectus: agreed, but with 10people you have less crazyness at the end, any boss with space problem (like tectus) is easier the less people you have.
Brack: 1/3 of your dps with flamethrowers! yeah! that's the problem? To have flamethrowers is a buff to your dps, a HUGE buff, this is clearly win 10man vs 30m. I haven't see the number but I guess the boss should not scale his health proportionally (it should have more in 10m than 30, proportionally).
Koragh: Here I agree the more people, easier should be; soakers will loss dps, so 10m harder.
Imperator: for last phase you have space problem, if the numbers are well tuned, this should be harder with more people, so 10m easier. The damage on tank is natural to scale that way, otherwise you could one heal any 10m boss.

[jarbulldog]

I completely disagree with on imperator. When the tanks are getting hit just as hard as they are when you have 2x healershealer, something is wrong. Just everything hits as hard as it does when the raid is double the size.

You don't have all healing cds

- - - Updated - - -

If I remember correctly, in 10 man things hit significantly less then 25. So if they are hitting just about the same when the raid is double the size, you don't see an issue there?

Also like I said in my original post, do the fight with 20 plus people, then do it with 10-11 people.

You will see the fight is significantly harder, they don't even compare.

I am also sayin average item level of raid is 650ish.

[melodramocracy]

In addition to the above statements... as always, the more folks you bring, the more you can afford to lose along the way. One down dps is going to have more impact in 10 man than it does in 30.

Brack: 1/3 of your dps with flamethrowers! yeah! that's the problem? To have flamethrowers is a buff to your dps, a HUGE buff, this is clearly win 10man vs 30m. I haven't see the number but I guess the boss should not scale his health proportionally (it should have more in 10m than 30, proportionally).

It's a problem when those 2 dps are clearing moss rather than hitting adds or the boss himself. Again, less consequential when there's other dps to continue with them.

[kelyne]

This is for sure an issue - We got him to 9% with 24 (2 tanks/5 healers) where some people were playing badly... When we started dropping the low dps and people who kept messing up mechanics the fight just got harder in response. We found that at 12 people with 3 healers had a hard time stabilizing after killing intermission small adds. Even using cool downs. (At 12 people the average DPS was 22k - At 24 it was 18k)

One mistake at that point was a wipe - our best attempt with 12 people was 18% even though ratio wise we had more healers than we did with 24 and higher dps.

Something needs to be tuned better with the scaling - Its not right that larger groups are that much more forgiving.

Granted with another 10 ilvls it probably will not be as big an issue. But we averaged 655 which should be where the fight is tuned if blizz is sticking to their model for heroic.

[Raiju]

It's a problem when those 2 dps are clearing moss rather than hitting adds or the boss himself. Again, less consequential when there's other dps to continue with them.

Clearing moss and topping dps are not mutually exclusive.