Another Class idea: Tinkerer

[Al Gorefiend]

Fine. Call them 'Dragon Champion'. Or even a completely new name.

Fine. Call Tinkers Technomage, Bombardier or Sapper. Or even a completely new name. What? That still doesn't change the theme? ....weird....

Talking about bows/crossbows/guns? That is a relic of the past from before Blizzard decided to remove the 'ranged/relic' slot from our characters.

I'm not making the assumption that dual-wielded ranged weapons would be feasible, just a cool thing to implement. And if they were, I could see Hunters using them as well as a new class.

[Ielenia]

Fine. Call Tinkers Technomage, Bombardier or Sapper. Or even a completely new name. What? That still doesn't change the theme? ....weird....

Except 'fire healing' and 'shadow healing' don't have to be connected to dragons. Tinkers, on the other hand...

[Al Gorefiend]

Except 'fire healing' and 'shadow healing' don't have to be connected to dragons. Tinkers, on the other hand...

So you just want 'fire healing' and 'shadow healing' in WoW, you don't really care how its introduced?

I want a class that revolves around insects and spiders, Arachnomancer! Make it happen Blizz!

[Xargoth6634]

Looks like something that's been posted in these forums about 100 times before.

[Ielenia]

So you just want 'fire healing' and 'shadow healing' in WoW, you don't really care how its introduced?

Fire healing and shadow healing are concepts that lend themselves to many possible origins.

I want a class that revolves around insects and spiders, Arachnomancer! Make it happen Blizz!

Nice joke.

[Al Gorefiend]

Fire healing and shadow healing are concepts that lend themselves to many possible origins.

Cool. Show me a source of it in WoW? Or is Alexstrasza healing with her magical flames the only one? And how does that lend any credibility to it being a possible magic obtainable by mortals?

shadow healing IS already in the game available to shadow priests. Devouring Plague, Vampiric Embrace, t90 talents pre-WoD nerf. You could argue Mind Soothe and Shadowguard was shadow healing as well before their removal in Wrath. Vampiric Touch before its nerf in Cataclysm regenerating mana. They are all Shadow priest spells.

[Thimagryn]

AGain with game terms.. and 'tech healing' and 'tech tanking' still need to overcome the tech-creation and tech-using theme already covered by engineering. Everything technology is engineering.

Everything technology is engineering? Using a gun is not Engineering. Throwing bombs is not Engineering. Driving a Siege Tank is not Engineering. These are things that classes who are not Engineers can do. This immediately opens up gaps in your argument that Engineering covers all technology. Being able to operate technology does not mean equate to the Engineering profession.

Engineering is specifically a profession. There is no lore for player-based Engineers being able to use technology in combat. By associating NPC Engineers with having the Engineer profession would be using gameplay to define your own terms! Classes and professions are defined by the game for playable characters. They do not apply to NPCs. NPCs don't take professions, they simply exist as their given title. Putricide is an Alchemist, but he is not defined as 'having the Alchemist profession' or 'being an Alchemist class'; he is simply an Alchemist.

An NPC does not abide by player standards. This mean a NPC Death Knight is not a Death Knight player class. It is an NPC Death Knight. This means they can do things normal players can't, and it wouldn't affect our own image of the Death Knight player class. NPC Engineers are not players. They are not characters that took the Engineering Profession, because that would be using game terms to define them. NPC Engineers and Tinkers are simply NPCs; wholly unrelated to Player class discussion.

Engineering can not be defined any more than the term 'Warrior' can, since the literal meaning would apply to every player who fights in a war. Game terms define Warrior as a specific class, and we know where its limits lie. Game terms define Engineering as a profession, and we know where its limits lie. There is no 'lore' to a gameplay definition. You're confusing the literal and broad Engineering term with the limitations of the Engineering profession. Engineers can't build a Siege Tank that shoots rockets. Engineering has its limits.

[Al Gorefiend]

Everything technology is engineering? Using a gun is not Engineering. Throwing bombs is not Engineering. Driving a Siege Tank is not Engineering. These are things that classes who are not Engineers can do. This immediately opens up gaps in your argument that Engineering covers all technology, because the being able to operate technology does not mean equate to being able to build it.

You're associating a person who builds websites as the same person who builds computers. A Tech-based class would be one skilled at the use of Technology for combat and adventuring. Engineering is specifically a profession, and in lore would be equated as such. There is no lore for player-based Engineers being able to use technology in combat. By associating NPC Engineers with having the Engineer profession would be using Gameplay to define your own terms!

Engineering is to Tinker what Blacksmith is to Warrior.

[diamondjim]

Well Teriz, seems to be mia I wonder how many of his sockpuppet accounts are in this thread rallying for tinkers.

On topic

Short Answer No

Long answer no go play wildstar

[Ielenia]

Cool. Show me a source of it in WoW? Or is Alexstrasza healing with her magical flames the only one? And how does that lend any credibility to it being a possible magic obtainable by mortals?

Considering Thrall acted as the Warden/Aspect of Earth during Cataclysm, the idea of giving mortals a fraction of their powers is not unheard of.

shadow healing IS already in the game available to shadow priests. Devouring Plague, Vampiric Embrace, t90 talents pre-WoD nerf. You could argue Mind Soothe and Shadowguard was shadow healing as well before their removal in Wrath. Vampiric Touch before its nerf in Cataclysm regenerating mana. They are all Shadow priest spells.

Shadow Priests do have some damage spells who give out some healing as afterthought, but you'd be going beyond simply 'stretching' and diving head-first into 'falsehood' territory if you claimed that shadow healing is the core aspect of Shadow Priests.

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Everything technology is engineering? Using a gun is not Engineering. Throwing bombs is not Engineering. Driving a Siege Tank is not Engineering. These are things that classes who are not Engineers can do. This immediately opens up gaps in your argument that Engineering covers all technology. Being able to operate technology does not mean equate to being able to build it.

And other people that are not engineers can use those. So every class is a tinker, then? If everyone can operate technology, what would be so special about the tinker?

Engineering is specifically a profession. There is no lore for player-based Engineers being able to use technology in combat. By associating NPC Engineers with having the Engineer profession would be using gameplay to define your own terms!

A profession that encompasses everything technology.

An NPC does not abide by player standards. This mean a NPC Death Knight is not a Death Knight player class. It is an NPC Death Knight. This means they can do things normal players can't, and it wouldn't affect our own image of the Death Knight player class. NPC Engineers are not players. They are not characters that took the Engineering Profession, because that would be using game terms to define them. NPC Engineers and Tinkers are simply NPCs; wholly unrelated to Player class discussion.

Engineering can not be defined any more than the term 'Warrior' can, since the literal meaning would apply to every player who fights in a war.

So, because you're using game terms to define them, we cannot use game terms to define them?

[Al Gorefiend]

Considering Thrall acted as the Warden/Aspect of Earth during Cataclysm, the idea of giving mortals a fraction of their powers is not unheard of.

So we're relying on what-if scenarios to create some random class that outdoes Tinkers, which already exist?

Shadow Priests do have some damage spells who give out some healing as afterthought, but you'd be going beyond simply 'stretching' and diving head-first into 'falsehood' territory if you claimed that shadow healing is the core aspect of Shadow Priests.

So what is a shadow healer and what is a shadow priest? Must be a massively huge distinction seeing that they'd be considered more unique and deserving of their own class, rather than something already established in Warcraft fantasy like the Tinker is.

[Ielenia]

Engineering is to Tinker what Blacksmith is to Warrior.

Wrong. Engineering is everything technology. Engineering is also the training to use said advanced mechanics. Which is why no one but an engineer can harvest robots. That is why only engineer can use high-tech items like a wormhole generator, etc.

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So what is a shadow healer and what is a shadow priest? Must be a massively huge distinction seeing that they'd be considered more unique and deserving of their own class, rather than something already established in Warcraft fantasy like the Tinker is.

"Tinkers" are only established as nicknames for engineers, nothing else. As for Shadow healers, off the top of my head, admit I cannot come up with a concept that fits it. Not because of the Shadow Priest, though, but because we have the Warlock. But it could just be the sleep creeping up in my head.

Admittedly, 'shadow healing', while an interesting concept, seems very hard, unlikely even, to pull off in a setting of Azeroth, considering how it deals with Shadow magic, it being either 'fel' or 'Old God'-y, as far as I know. I won't say impossible, but very unlikely.

[Al Gorefiend]

And other people that are not engineers can use those. So every class is a tinker, then? If everyone can operate technology, what would be so special about the tinker?

In the Valley of Four Winds we were trained by the Hidden Master to fight hand-to-hand and killed a massive invading Kuchong by launching into its stomach and karate chopping it internally. So every class is a monk then?

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Wrong. Engineering is everything technology. Engineering is also the training to use said advanced mechanics. Which is why no one but an engineer can harvest robots. That is why only engineer can use high-tech items like a wormhole generator, etc.

It doesn't have to be. If a Tinker class is fun, engineering will adjust for its arrival.

[Thimagryn]

And other people that are not engineers can use those. So every class is a tinker, then? If everyone can operate technology, what would be so special about the tinker?

Apply your question to any existing class.

A) Anyone can swing a sword (auto attack). What makes a Warrior special?
B) Anyone can use magic (Enchanting). What makes a Mage special?
C) Anyone can heal with nature magic (Herbalism). What makes a Druid special?
D) Anyone can use technology (Engineering). What makes a Tech Specialist special?

So, because you're using game terms to define them, we cannot use game terms to define them?

My point is you're using a double standard. You are asking for lore to define the difference between Tinkers and Engineers without using gameplay terms, but your own definition of what Tinkers and Engineers do is based on gameplay terms; in this case all Tinkers use the Engineering Profession.

You seem to be oblivious to this fact, but if you're actually trolling me, you're doing a fantastic job of it.

[Ielenia]

It doesn't have to be. If a Tinker class is fun, engineering will adjust for its arrival.

You mean, be removed or completely gutted into near nothingness so it doesn't overlap with the theme and concept of the new feature?

[shamantime]

Cool. Show me a source of it in WoW? Or is Alexstrasza healing with her magical flames the only one? And how does that lend any credibility to it being a possible magic obtainable by mortals?

shadow healing IS already in the game available to shadow priests. Devouring Plague, Vampiric Embrace, t90 talents pre-WoD nerf. You could argue Mind Soothe and Shadowguard was shadow healing as well before their removal in Wrath. Vampiric Touch before its nerf in Cataclysm regenerating mana. They are all Shadow priest spells.

Cauterize for Mages, Singe Magic for Warlocks, Glyph of Flame Shock for Shaman, Ember Tap for Warlocks...fire healing.

[Ielenia]

Apply your question to any existing class.

A) Anyone can swing a sword (auto attack). What makes a Warrior special? Warriors shout.
B) Anyone can use magic (Enchanting). What makes a Mage special? Mages can create portals.
C) Anyone can heal with nature magic (Herbalism). What makes a Druid special? Druids can shapeshift.
D) Anyone can use technology (Engineering). What makes a Tech Specialist special? Nothing.

Tongue-in-cheek answer, I know, but here's the real thing: A, B and C both give very limited access to sword-fighting (A), magic (B) and nature magic (C). Meanwhile, D gives acces to everything technology.

My point is you're using a double standard. You are asking for lore to define the difference between Tinkers and Engineers without using gameplay terms, but your own definition of what Tinkers and Engineers do is based on gameplay terms; in this case all Tinkers use the Engineering Profession.

Erm, no. My definition of what Tinkers and Engineers do is based both of what I see in the game, lore-wise, and the definition of the names. Tinkers... tinker. They tinker. The common definition of tinkering is 'to create or construct something from available materials'. So the Tinkers build machines. If they build machines, just like the engineers, there is no distinction between them.

[Al Gorefiend]

You mean, be removed or completely gutted into near nothingness so it doesn't overlap with the theme and concept of the new feature?

Nothing but assumptions. Where in a historical context has Blizzard done this previously?

[Thimagryn]

Erm, no. My definition of what Tinkers and Engineers do is based both of what I see in the game, lore-wise, and the definition of the names. Tinkers... tinker. They tinker. The common definition of tinkering is 'to create or construct something from available materials'. So the Tinkers build machines. If they build machines, just like the engineers, there is no distinction between them.

Which is the textbook definition of ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE

an·ec·do·tal
ˌanəkˈdōdl/
adjective
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

In this case, the real life definition of Tinker does not apply to the class, because they are not relevant to the game. The real life definition of a Warrior, a person engaged or experienced in warfare; would apply to EVERY CLASS. These definitions are not relevant to WoW Warriors and WoW Tinkers. The reason is because Tinkers and Warriors in WoW have their own definition. If we talk about Tanks in WoW, we're not talking about real life Tanks.

So what is the definition of a Tinker in WoW you ask? It remains undefined because they do not formally exist. Tinker is a title used by NPCs; and there is no definition or lore behind it.

You're only assuming Tinkers use Engineering, and I'm calling you out for not recognizing that your assumptions are not facts.

[Florena]

I could get behind a tech class so long as it's not a goofy rehash of gnome and goblin engineering profession but as a class. Give it a slightly more grounded theme maybe.

Take monks for example. Brewmaster is too goofy I think to be a full on class in WoW, but it works as a monk spec. Make Tinker a spec within a tech themed class, maybe make the other trees draenei crystal tech and another something more iron hordish maybe, and then have the third spec as the goofy goblin/gnome themed spec.