Imperator NEED achieve or no invite

[evertonbelmontt]

From Reddit: http://imgur.com/a/aq50l

Does reddit not allow name calling? These idiots deserve to be known as the idiots they are.

[Bearshield]

Group finder is a glorified pug system and suffers from the same problems that looking for people in Trade/General always has. You have the gear score idiots who not only set the bar significantly higher than need be, but then conveniently overlook those who are only at or just above the bar they have set. Then there are those requiring an achievement to prove that you have been there before (which, to be fair, I could at least understand for Heroic or higher). And then you will still even after all of this, run into many people who do not pull their weight, do not know what they're doing, or are just plain out jerks. Unfortunately Blizzard has yet to add an idiot filter and there will always be risks associated with pugging.

On the other hand, pugging should never be more appealing than being in a guild. While I understand the frustration of being overlooked based on the little to no information the Raid Finder tool allows you to convey to these groups, I still strongly believe the best solution is to join a guild and do the content with them. A dedicated team of like-minded individuals working together will always be stronger than a bunch of random people thrown together on a whim. More fun with a guild too.

[LiiLoSNK]

People cry about this, yet are too lazy/bad at the game to make and lead their own groups.

People are so funny.

[Deleted]

People cry about this, yet are too lazy/bad at the game to make and lead their own groups.

People are so funny.

Some people don't like leading groups

[Deleted]

Some people don't like leading groups

then you are unfortunately at the mercy of those who can/want/like to lead.

Also it is always easier to progress in raids (i.e. kill bosses for the first time) with guilds, and i would also never take people who do not have the experience with me unless someone personally vouches for them. I already progressed that fight and when i pug it i typically do not want to re-progress it again.

If your main concern is with people without the xp demanding xp, then it is on you to educate yourself and everybody else about this situation. As long as these people get their raids full they will not stop.

[Boggle]

Why would they take you over someone who has done it before. If people can afford to be picky they will be. Make your own group if you don't like not being able to join a group.

[LiiLoSNK]

Some people don't like leading groups

Hense, why most leaders would require an achievement.

Some people don't like leading groups because coordinating people is annoying.

Inviting players with actual proof that they'd at least done the fight before makes your chances of organizing coordination a lot better.

If someone is going to come here and cry their eyes out about not getting carried into a raid, they should first try putting themselves in the raid leader's shoes. Creating and leading a raid full of non-achievement having people might make him realize how truly hypocritical the original post is making him look.

People who put in the bare minimum effort and then have the audacity to complain are the scum of this world.

[Ragedaug]

This is normal since ... I don't remember since when - since WotLK probably. Quite often you can see something like "LFM Highmaul normal 660+".
There is another reason - Imperator is far harder than previous bosses on all difficulties, so even if you have 6\7 it does not mean you know what to do, you wont be blowing traps or run with waves.
There were some good advices - try to use Openraid - this really helps. You can also try to fake an achiev, but I don't think you will not be checked via armory first.

I didn't PuG in Vanilla, so I can't speak to that (was just a lowbie back then) but it's normal since at least Burning Crusade. Before Gear Score, the bar was "x spell power or attack power required". This was definitely the worst of the indicators as different classes received and used attack power differently, but to note, there has always been a "your gear must be 'this' good to apply" when it comes to pick up groups.

[NuLogic]

If the group is bad they will fail so just ignore them then. Not many are going to try to progress with a random pug.

[Ragedaug]

If gear wasn't indicative of skill to these folks, it wouldn't be used as a requirement. It really is that simple.

So....you couldn't find an example of anyone saying that, ever, in the history of the internet. So hopefully you see my point about that strawman that literally no one has ever argued for.

edit - for the record, gear is a indication of maximum potential. that's it. It really is that simple. No implication of skill ever implied.

[melodramocracy]

So....you couldn't find an example of anyone saying that, ever, in the history of the internet. So hopefully you see my point about that strawman that literally no one has ever argued for.

edit - for the record, gear is a indication of maximum potential. that's it. It really is that simple. No implication of skill ever implied.

This isn't a strawman, this is you moving goalposts around to fit your narrative. In practice, the general view is that the higher your ilvl, the better of a player you are. If that were not the case, ilvl wouldn't be used as a measuring stick for pugs. If you want examples, your search button works just as well as anyone else's.

And for the record, gear w/o skill behind it isn't an indicator of anything. And that's what's great about most of the HM fights... execution matters more than raw output for dps, so for the immediate future, ilvl is even less of a worthwhile measuring stick.

[Saoron]

Umm no.. I agree with ragedaug that no one (in their right mind) truly equates gear to skill.. and you saying if it weren't an indication of skill then pugs wouldn't use it as a measuring stick is absurd.. as if skill is the only thing pugs look for ? They don't.. You want to know why pugs ask for ilvl ? Because it indicates BASIC survivability and potential output..

Main goal for a pug is to get ppl with enough potential output to offset for the inevitable random skillset you would get while pugging strangers.. If you get a skilled person with X ilvl, gg.. if you get a scrub with X ilvl, theoretically they 'should' be able to do the bare minimum.. (not always the case, but that's the general idea)

If a dps has X ilvl, even while completely fucking up their rotation and just slamming their faces on the keyboard, they 'should' be able to output Y dps (theoretically).. If a tank has X ilvl, even if they don't know what a cooldown is, they'd have high enough armor and hp that the healers would be able to keep them alive and they'd be able to take hits better.. If a healer has X ilvl, their heals would heal for Y amount..

It is basically a cusion.. a risk minimizer.. it's another thing that it's not an efficient way of doing things.. i've been in situations where i linked heroic [mythic] deathwing achieves for two of my toons (main and an alt) in order to get into a normal pug with my 3rd alt.. but was denied due to low ilvl.. in that case a smart person would bend the rule.. BUT even if they don't, that's their prerogative..

[NatePsy]

From Reddit: http://imgur.com/a/aq50l

Most of these images explain it best. Just a couple plebs wanting a free ride.

[AsaKappa]

i don't think fake achievement works. Serious group goes to the armory. I have been in pug group group early enough to observe their recruitment process. one is on wow, checking the potential candidate, while another is on windows/armory, getting names and chicking XP, gear, enchant etc...

That being said, it's up to the leader of the group to decide who he picks in his group, nothing is forcing him to pick the first one he sees. My strat is usually to give my class, ilevel, XP and patchwerk style boss DPS (about 25k). this get me invite easily. Some tells me that i get kick if i lied about my dps, i say i'm totally fine with it. Sitting at the top of the dpsmeter, i was never kicked of any group and even got random invite from previous group leader.

it works, 99% of the people in group finder are garbage and won't ever check armory

[rayden54]

Create your own PuG. done.

There are not enough people for everyone to create their own group. You just end up with a bunch of groups all spamming chat looking for tanks and heals.

[Firebert]

Does reddit not allow name calling? These idiots deserve to be known as the idiots they are.

They don't allow witch hunts.

However, if it works, it works; if many are resorting to leading and getting boosted to get the achievment then it makes sense to do it yourself.

[Count Zero]

People tryna get carried.

Make your own groups.

[Xenryusho]

So....you couldn't find an example of anyone saying that, ever, in the history of the internet. So hopefully you see my point about that strawman that literally no one has ever argued for.

edit - for the record, gear is a indication of maximum potential. that's it. It really is that simple. No implication of skill ever implied.

Enough throwing around fallacies. The way you talk implies to others things you claim you don't mean. When you have a sentence like "I'm not saying we should kill children but..." and someone calls you out on it, responding "I WAS GONNA SAY WE SHOULD EAT YOGURT, STRAWMAN MUCH!?" is not a valid response. We don't have time to ask everyone who comments to clarify their system of beliefs. You're wrong, plain and simple. There are more than enough ways to vet a prospective player in under five minutes. If you're falling back to ilvl or achievement as your method of vetting players you're either saying that this has a strong enough correlation to skill that you're maximizing your success through it, or you're lazy. Regardless, however, it gives this impression to the community; and in turn others start asking for ilvl as a measure of skill because they think there's a strong positive correlation between them.

In reality very few of these groups work out how they should for people of the required ilvl with the knowledge their expected to have. This method of vetting in enough cases turns out so poor in fact that the group is reduced to a rage and wipe-fest. The OP is posting that this perpetuation of ilvl + achievement = skill is damaging to the community as a whole and has become too widespread for him as well as many other competent players to get a group.

You keep making the example where we have two players with the exactly same credentials and unknowns other than ilvl are among our choices. And in your completely unrealistic scenario yes, we would always pick the one with higher ilvl. But in reality there are plenty of things we could do to find our more about the player, not to mention that we don't have to pick either of, or just one of them.

Edit: Maximum potential is unbelievably unnecessary for normal/heroic pugs, and won't be reached unless you're a method player on a good day. This rubric isn't useful for what's trying to be accomplished because the minimum performance remains the same.

[Keyboard Champion]

Saw some douchebags asking for the "curve" achievement too.

[Deleted]

I thought I was the only one with this issue. Then got this thread and went to group finder.

Picked up one pug randomly and got this:



Went to check the raid leader armory and got this:



Enough said.