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  1. #21
    Deleted
    Does mindbender not do a "partial tick" of damage or something?

    Anyway, isn't solace better than bender in every circumstance other than Butcher mythic or something? I mean i've seen people argue "b-but solace uses a lot more gcds", but isn't solace still better if u need a lot of mana regen, and SoL is better if you don't need solace's regen or something?

    **edit** Also does anyone happen to have a pre-mythic, and post mythic highmaul BiS list, just out of curiosity :P.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PandaManl0l View Post
    Does mindbender not do a "partial tick" of damage or something?

    Anyway, isn't solace better than bender in every circumstance other than Butcher mythic or something? I mean i've seen people argue "b-but solace uses a lot more gcds", but isn't solace still better if u need a lot of mana regen, and SoL is better if you don't need solace's regen or something?

    **edit** Also does anyone happen to have a pre-mythic, and post mythic highmaul BiS list, just out of curiosity :P.
    Personally, I'd never use Mindbender. Even on butcher mythic, you're probably better off having instant flash heals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PandaManl0l View Post
    Does mindbender not do a "partial tick" of damage or something?

    Anyway, isn't solace better than bender in every circumstance other than Butcher mythic or something? I mean i've seen people argue "b-but solace uses a lot more gcds", but isn't solace still better if u need a lot of mana regen, and SoL is better if you don't need solace's regen or something?

    **edit** Also does anyone happen to have a pre-mythic, and post mythic highmaul BiS list, just out of curiosity :P.

    mind bender does not do a partial tick (at least, not for the mana gains, no idea about the damage portion but I'd assume they're linked).

    Mindbender is better on fights where you want the extra throughput but can't make use of divine star to proc SoL or the resulting PoH. If you need max mana then yes, solace is your best option.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    Imo Multistrike > haste to 12.5% > Mastery and Crit. Get sprit where you can get it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Imo Multistrike > haste to 12.5% > Mastery and Crit. Get spirit where you can get it.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Blewe92 View Post
    Imo Multistrike > haste to 12.5% > Mastery and Crit. Get sprit where you can get it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Imo Multistrike > haste to 12.5% > Mastery and Crit. Get spirit where you can get it.
    smh. Whenever you see "12.5% [haste]" in a post, just ignore it. Like, flat out ignore it, because it's obviously going to be wrong and uninformed. Haste > mastery at all levels (except when you reach the GCD, which is realistically never), and crit > mastery at all times (but haste > crit).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Blewe92 View Post
    Imo Multistrike > haste to 12.5% > Mastery and Crit. Get sprit where you can get it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Imo Multistrike > haste to 12.5% > Mastery and Crit. Get spirit where you can get it.
    why 12.5% haste? pretty random

  7. #27
    The 12.5% number is probably floating around as a remnant from the unglyphed Renew break-point back in MoP, which is obviously irrelevant now. That being said, it does represent a 'sort-of break-point' for healing in Chakra: Sanctuary.

    EDIT: Prior to WoD, Haste break-points were the Haste rating required to gain an extra full tick of heal/damage over time effects; as such, the general gearing recommendation was to get the highest break-point you could achieve, then disregard Haste until the next break-point was attainable. In WoD, with the introduction of partial ticks, such break-points no longer exist (at least, for healing Priests), and so the 'sort-of break-points' calculated below do not drastically change the value of Haste like they did pre-WoD; i.e. Haste is generally still valuable both before and after the break-points below.
    (I wish I had some good maths to quantify the above, but regardless, don't use these break-points as soft caps for Haste; they're more just numbers for those who are interested). END EDIT

    Assume that, within the cooldown of Circle of Healing (12 seconds), one casts 'n' spells that trigger the cooldown reduction and 'p' spells that do not. Further, assume that all of the spells cast are either instant or have a 1.5 second (or less) cast time prior to Haste; the only spells that do not satisfy this are Divine Hymn, and Heal and Prayer of Healing cast with less than 2 stacks of Serendipity. Equating the reduced cooldown of Circle of Healing to the time required to cast the n + p spells gives,

    12 - n = (1.5)(n + p)/(1 + H) -> H = [(3/2)(n + p)/(12 - n)] - 1 = (5n + 3p - 24)/(24 - 2n)

    When I tested it ages ago, Power Word: Solace did not trigger the cooldown reduction, and it seemed neither did Circle of Healing itself; there are definitely other spells that don't trigger the cooldown reduction, but I never tested them. So, let's assume that p = 2. First, let's see how many casts we can fit in with no Haste rating (so just 5% from the raid buff). Taking the first equation above and making n the subject gives,

    n = [24(1 + H) - 3p]/(5 + 2H)

    which for H = 0.05 gives n = 3.7647 (for p = 2). The next 'break-point' for p = 2 is that for n = 4 which, using the equation for H, is H = 0.125 or 12.5%; this translates to 714.3 Haste rating if the raid buff is present.

    There are a couple of issues to consider. The first is that the cooldown on Power Word: Solace is 10 seconds, whereas the reduced cooldown on Circle of Healing is 8 seconds (for n = 4), so Power Word: Solace won't be cast between every cast of Circle of Healing; as such, p isn't necessarily a constant for a given casting pattern. The second is that Power Word: Solace is only relevant if it's talented into.

    Because of how p may vary, let's make a little table with the buffed Haste values needed to achieve a certain n for a given p. If an entry has a dash, then that (n, p) may be achieved without any Haste at all; if an entry has a cross, then the required Haste is greater than 50% and so the GCD hard cap of 1 second prevents you casting any faster.

    Haste p = 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
    n = 0 - - - - - - -
    1 - - - - - - -
    2 - - - - - 0.05 0.2
    3 - - - - 0.1667 0.3333 0.5
    4 - - 0.125 0.3125 0.5 x x
    5 0.0714 0.2857 0.5 x x x x
    6 0.5 x x x x x x

    There are a ton of things to keep in mind with this (cast slow effects, if relevant; the assumption of base cast times of 1.5 seconds or less; most of the pairs of n and x are not realistic), but the main thing is to remember that this only applies within Chakra: Sanctuary. It's also mostly a case of numbers for the sake of it :P
    Last edited by Myllior; 2015-01-10 at 12:40 AM.
    Oh yeah, look at it go! Roll out the barrel; feel it in your bones!
    6.2 Healing Priest Spreadsheets; Legion Holy Priest Rotation Calculator (WiP)

  8. #28
    Deleted
    interesting post nonetheless. I found myself pondering it myself a couple of nights ago. I found in raids I'd sometimes have CoH come available mid-GCD or I'd be 'waiting' for CoH so I could use it immediately. Obviously those situations are sub-optimal although I'm not sure the significance of the GCD breakpoints between CoH casts outweighs the benefits of more healing from renew per cast and the "usual" function of haste to cast faster.

  9. #29
    Myllior:
    Interesting post! I think I gained a new perspective.
    Non-discipline 2006-2019, not supporting the company any longer. Also: fails.
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  10. #30
    It depends a bit on your healing style, I found out from the spreadsheet that is floating around here that with my renew/CoH playstyle mastery is even worse than I thought for me. 30% of my heals are from renew and lightwell (which does not benefit from mastery). So versatility is slightly better.

    Stat priority will more then likely change when you have the 4set, it's very likely that mastery being the worst stat atm will become your 2nd best after multistrike.

    If you do want some stat weights (this is a bit gear dependent and playstyle dependent)
    Int 1
    SP 0.907
    Multi 0.547
    Haste 0.513
    Crit 0.447
    Versa 0.423
    Mastery 0.379

    You can check your exact weights if you use this Spreadsheet

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Myllior View Post
    [snip]
    This does make sense, I can't deny that, and I'm sure it's mathematically backed up (I cba to check, but I have no reason not to take your word for it), but my issue is that people will take this it to heart that 12.5% haste is something they should be aiming for when in fact haste doesn't diminish in value after it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Valancer View Post
    I play as a holy priest and when I ran hfc lfr I noticed after the first boss my heal spell wasn't casting. So I looked at it and it shows that it has a 34.4 min cast time
    Do you have the class trinket? If so, the cast time is correct. /s

  12. #32
    Deleted
    I walue Versa over crit and mastery in mythic raiding. It gives nice boost to survivability and sometimes is a difference between personal death or not.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    I'm not sure the significance of the GCD breakpoints between CoH casts outweighs the benefits of more healing from renew per cast and the "usual" function of haste to cast faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    my issue is that people will take this it to heart that 12.5% haste is something they should be aiming for when in fact haste doesn't diminish in value after it.
    Oh I'm not trying to say that it behaves like Haste break-points pre-WoD. That's why I initially called it a 'sort-of break-point'; it's the Haste level where another cast can be fit smoothly inside the available time (i.e. Circle of Healing's cooldown). That being said, I can see that it may give the wrong impression, so I'll add a little disclaimer at the beginning of the post.

    It's a pity there isn't more maths on Haste for Holy (at least, I haven't seen any; if there is some, could someone link it? ). It's interesting because, in addition to being able to cast faster/more and the increase in the healing per cast of Renew/Lightwell/Sanctuary (as you mentioned Redsparowe), there's the effect of being able to cast Circle of Healing more often (in Sanctuary) or being able to maintain a greater number of simultaneous Renews on the raid (in Serenity).

    Quote Originally Posted by Talhooo View Post
    You can check your exact weights if you use this Spreadsheet
    I'm guessing that's the one from the Holy Guide thread? If so, you've linked to it after opening it with Google Sheets, which would have created a copy that only you have access to. The publicly-accessible version of the sheet may be accessed/downloaded from here.

    In addition, if that is the sheet from the Holy Guide thread, keep in mind that the weight for Haste is an extremely crude one as it ignores a large number of factors (i.e. HPM boost to heal over time effects, extra effects in Sanctuary/Serenity, impact of spells with cooldowns, additional mana requirement). Regardless, Haste is indeed good for Holy, but I wouldn't use the weight for any finely tuned numerical comparison.

    There's also the whole thing of including vs. neglecting Versatility's damage reduction component. Suffice to say that the spreadsheet does not include the damage reduction component, but if you want to include it you can get a rough value by multiplying the value of Versatility in the sheet by [1 + L*a_s*(1+V)/(2-V)], where L is the minimum number of healers required to heal the encounter and a_s is the proportion of raid damage taken by you personally; for a more detailed look, see the documents found here. The main thing not mentioned in that post is that the extra 'healing' from the damage reduction component isn't controllable, which may (or may not) may it slightly less desirable; something to keep in mind anyhow.

    Edit: Oops, that's a lot to write for a spreadsheet that may not even be the one I'm thinking of.
    Last edited by Myllior; 2015-01-09 at 10:23 PM.
    Oh yeah, look at it go! Roll out the barrel; feel it in your bones!
    6.2 Healing Priest Spreadsheets; Legion Holy Priest Rotation Calculator (WiP)

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