How did things get this bad?

[JohnBrown1917]

To me suicide is the most selfish act a person can ever do. While I agree the parents are contenders for shittiest parents of the year, she made the choice. The driver did not.

While I agree suicide should not be commited in such ways, its ridiculous to see all suicide as selfish. Maybe you'll understand if you ever become suicidal.


But if you do kill yourself, don't give traumas to random strangers.

[Stop Pretending]

While I agree suicide should not be commited in such ways, its ridiculous to see all suicide as selfish. Maybe you'll understand if you ever become suicidal.

I was at a time, in my early teens, even had a pistol in my mouth. Luckily I did not pull the trigger, and to this day I see what I almost did as the most selfish act I ever did in my life.

[Felya]

There were two threads locked on this forum, due to reactions to the original story.

[Spectral]

Seems like the civilized world's in a pretty decent spot when things are good enough that we even notice people being dicks on the internet. Beats the hell out of most of history.

[Drsolders]

I feel bad for the kid committing suicide, I have been in some dark places too. It is a terrible feeling and I can feel empathy for him. However, I feel worse for the tractor trailer driver he scared for life. Killing yourself? I can understand, forcing someone else to kill you? That is fucked up.

[Independent voter]

Washington Times is a click bait site, not what you'd call real news. It's like the British Daily Mail or Sun, they come up with provocative titles and stories to generate clicks.

[Stop Pretending]

Washington Times is a click bait site, not what you'd call real news. It's like the British Daily Mail or Sun, they come up with provocative titles and stories to generate clicks.

The story is 100% legit though, it's getting a lot of news around this country.

[theflamecrow]

People don't understand transgender people and call them awful things. That's pretty much the simple form of the issue.

40% try to commit suicide.... That number is insanely high and it's thanks to hateful shit and parents like Leelah's.

[Stop Pretending]

That implies your suicidal phase did not last long at all. You can't speak for other suicidal people, its not selfish when you're suffering.

There are other ways to deal with suffering. Did this person even explore other options before hurling herself into oncoming traffic?

Actually I deal with the thought of Suicide to this day, when me and my wife almost got divorced, it was something I thought about. But hey look, shit got better, my son still has a dad.

[Endus]

Freespeech.

If we are going to filter what we can say and when, it's not freespeech.

People can say anything that is not against the law and the rules.

Deal with it.

This is, as others have already noted, all kinds of wrong.

Free speech is a concept that only applies to whether or not the government can jail and/or fine you for the content of your speech, within certain bounds (since some content, like child porn or inciting riots, is still illegal).

If has nothing whatsoever to do with freedom from consequences for your speech.

Anonymity is only valuable when you face actual, literal, violent oppression. Like, the government will kick in your door and shoot you in the head for the things you've said, oppressive. In any other case, you aren't seeking protection from oppression, you're merely looking to evade responsibility for the things you've said. Which means you're either a coward, or an asshole who's saying nasty things to annoy people, not because you actually believe any of it. That's pretty much it.

If you're saying something while you're anonymous that you wouldn't say to someone's face, in person, you're a coward. It's that simple. The only reason you feel free to speak while anonymous is because you feel like you won't have to face the consequences for having said it. Reasonable, decent people just don't say that kind of stuff, ever, whether or not they're anonymous.

In short, if you're protecting your anonymity because your government would kill you for your rebellious posts, maybe you have justification to protect your anonymity. If you're protecting it so that your friends and family and employers, present and future, won't know what a raving bigot/asshole/jerkface you are, then you're a cowardly bigot/asshole/jerkface, and you're lying to everyone around you rather than just, y'know, trying to not be such a terrible person.

[Senka]

It's not even the internet specifically causing this behavior. There's just ALWAYS someone thinking like this, and a web page is an outlet for them.

It's like a magnet for both them and you. It's a magnet for them because they can say whatever they want with no consequence, which gets out their strange, pent-up negative emotions. It's a magnet for you because you're there for a different reason than them, and at the same time you're always seeing what they're saying.

Different people are attracted, like a magnet, to the same web page for different reasons. It's nothing personal. Certainly some of them have truly serious issues, but I think most of them are just bored. They're still awful people to do that out of boredom, but that's what I think it is.

One of the biggest lessons I've learned on the internet is that there is always SOMEONE thinking the worst thing about you or someone else, no matter how unjustified for whatever reason. Even if they're not posting it online, they're out there. It sounds like paranoia, but the sooner you think that way and then get used to it so you can get over it and not let it bother you, the sooner you can live well online. Until then, the Internet will not be a good place for you.

By "you" I don't mean the OP or anyone in particular, I just mean anyone troubled by the Internet.

[JohnBrown1917]

This is, as others have already noted, all kinds of wrong.

Free speech is a concept that only applies to whether or not the government can jail and/or fine you for the content of your speech, within certain bounds (since some content, like child porn or inciting riots, is still illegal).

If has nothing whatsoever to do with freedom from consequences for your speech.

Anonymity is only valuable when you face actual, literal, violent oppression. Like, the government will kick in your door and shoot you in the head for the things you've said, oppressive. In any other case, you aren't seeking protection from oppression, you're merely looking to evade responsibility for the things you've said. Which means you're either a coward, or an asshole who's saying nasty things to annoy people, not because you actually believe any of it. That's pretty much it.

If you're saying something while you're anonymous that you wouldn't say to someone's face, in person, you're a coward. It's that simple. The only reason you feel free to speak while anonymous is because you feel like you won't have to face the consequences for having said it. Reasonable, decent people just don't say that kind of stuff, ever, whether or not they're anonymous.

In short, if you're protecting your anonymity because your government would kill you for your rebellious posts, maybe you have justification to protect your anonymity. If you're protecting it so that your friends and family and employers, present and future, won't know what a raving bigot/asshole/jerkface you are, then you're a cowardly bigot/asshole/jerkface, and you're lying to everyone around you rather than just, y'know, trying to not be such a terrible person.

Like I said before "I'm pretty sure he is talking about why that sort of speech is allowed on the internet in general"


Free speech, does, and should, apply to the internet. You have the rigth to police your own site(s), you do not have the right to police the rest of the internet.

[Endus]

Like I said before "I'm pretty sure he is talking about why that sort of speech is allowed on the internet in general"

Free speech, does, and should, apply to the internet. You have the rigth to police your own site(s), you do not have the right to police the rest of the internet.

The point is; free speech cuts both ways. While you're free to say whatever you like, everyone else is free to express their opinion of you for having said that. You have no right to anonymity, or to freedom from consequences over what you have said.

[Felya]

Free speech, does, and should, apply to the internet. You have the rigth to police your own site(s), you do not have the right to police the rest of the internet.

The problem with freedom of speech and anonymity, is that your feelings are hurt because you open up. While your freedom to reply, which is the inherent punishment of freedom of speech, is prevented because the person giving you shit does not open up to be on equal ground.

[Independent voter]

The story is 100% legit though, it's getting a lot of news around this country.

OP was talking about the comments. Washington Times is a click bait site, imagine the people who go there to post in the comments, probably all jokers looking to outdo each other.

Compare that to the comments in a legit newspaper or even here on MMO-C

[Deleted]

It's truly terrible that everyone is allowed to be a parent, but it would be quite difficult to change that, for now.

About the twats usually found in comment sections, not much to do but to troll them profusely, as they tend to get quite angry.

[Stop Pretending]

OP was talking about the comments. Washington Times is a click bait site, imagine the people who go there to post in the comments, probably all jokers looking to outdo each other.

Compare that to the comments in a legit newspaper or even here on MMO-C

Ah my bad.

[theflamecrow]

OP was talking about the comments. Washington Times is a click bait site, imagine the people who go there to post in the comments, probably all jokers looking to outdo each other.

Compare that to the comments in a legit newspaper or even here on MMO-C

The comments in the thread I made were pretty bad too....

[JohnBrown1917]

The point is; free speech cuts both ways. While you're free to say whatever you like, everyone else is free to express their opinion of you for having said that. You have no right to anonymity, or to freedom from consequences over what you have said.

Indeed, you do not. But the government also does not have the right to enforce everybody sighing up with real names, so how exactly does that mean that free speech does not apply to the internet? It does not stop you from getting banned from sites, but you can create sites for whatever you want, assuming you do not break the law(i.e 8chan has no global rules, aside from the U.S law).


But anonymity is not just good for protection from the government, its also protection from internet threats(even if they are rarely serious). I'm sure a lot of people would be uncomfortable supporting something like #gamergate if everybody could find out where they lived, their place of work(people already got fired) etc...
Just to name an example of people getting harassed for holding a different opinion, and having that leak into IRL.

You don't want the crazies to know where you're from.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with freedom of speech and anonymity, is that your feelings are hurt because you open up. While your freedom to reply, which is the inherent punishment of freedom of speech, is prevented because the person giving you shit does not open up to be on equal ground.

Sites themselves are free to make rules about that, but this is not something(unless its harassment/about illegal products) the government can intervene with.


But i'm off to bed now, before this turn into yet another free speech/suicide is selfish thread.

[Endus]

Indeed, you do not. But the government also does not have the right to enforce everybody sighing up with real names, so how exactly does that mean that free speech does not apply to the internet?

Nobody said free speech didn't apply to the internet.

We're pointing out that free speech in no way grants you any right to anonymity in making that speech. It's a totally separate issue.

Also, signing up with a funny name in no way means you're necessarily anonymous. It just means you have an alias. And in many jurisdictions, that legal alias just requires you to use the name. This is pretty common with, say, authors, who often write under pen names; that pen name is a legal alias, and it's created by the act of publishing your work under that name.

Which isn't in any way a protection, really. And there's really nothing requiring ISPs to protect your anonymity. The main reason they don't is because 1> their customers wouldn't like them giving up the names, and 2> the government usually doesn't have any legal means to force them to do so. There's no user/ISP privilege, like there is with clients and lawyers. The only thing maintaining your anonymity is your ISP's choice to do so.

But anonymity is not just good for protection from the government, its also protection from internet threats(even if they are rarely serious). I'm sure a lot of people would be uncomfortable supporting something like #gamergate if everybody could find out where they lived, their place of work(people already got fired) etc... Just to name an example of people getting harassed for holding a different opinion, and having that leak into IRL.


You don't want the crazies to know where you're from.

Anonymity is what allows for those threats, in the first place.

If I can tell the guy making the threats is a 14 year old kid in Idaho, I can pretty safely assume he's just mouthing off, and ignore the threat. If I can tell it's a guy who lives three doors down from me, well, now we're talking about criminal assault, and I'd be calling the cops and getting them to file charges.

A lot of this stuff involves criminal assault, criminal harassment, and the like. Which largely doesn't get processed because of anonymity making it difficult to determine who's committing the crime. So the police generally don't bother unless it's really serious, because it just isn't worth the time investment. Removing anonymity vastly reduces that investment, which means the legal system can sort out those threats by punishing them, like they would threats made via any other medium.