Points or Rolls?

[Radish Spirit]

This has nothing to do with loot system. I have never seen a guild give loot to trials over regulars. WTF would any guild invest gear into someone when they haven't even decided to make them a full member yet?

If you don't trust someone enough to give them loot, then don't fucking take them to your raids dude. With flex raiding and cross-realm the idea concept of a "trial" is an oudated, bullshit concept.

If people help you kill a boss, give them a chance at loot.

If you don't want their help killing a boss, don't fucking invite them.

It's pretty simple.

[Aquamonkey]

If you don't trust someone enough to give them loot, then don't fucking take them to your raids dude. With flex raiding and cross-realm the idea concept of a "trial" is an oudated, bullshit concept.

If people help you kill a boss, give them a chance at loot.

If you don't want their help killing a boss, don't fucking invite them.

It's pretty simple.

Flex and xrealm don't work on Mythic...

[Sonnillon]

If you don't trust someone enough to give them loot, then don't fucking take them to your raids dude. With flex raiding and cross-realm the idea concept of a "trial" is an oudated, bullshit concept.

If people help you kill a boss, give them a chance at loot.

If you don't want their help killing a boss, don't fucking invite them.

It's pretty simple.

I agree with Kerchunk. We did have the raider > trial priority in previous expansion, but now it's just MS > OS master loot. Sure it runs the risk of trial or a PUG (we have regular people who have better attendance then some guildies) leaving and not raiding with us anymore. But heck, your core raider can gear up and leave the guild as well... Makes no difference. What matters is that people get the gear to make the kills possible/easier at that point, whether they leave or stay.

[Deleted]

If you don't trust someone enough to give them loot, then don't fucking take them to your raids dude. With flex raiding and cross-realm the idea concept of a "trial" is an oudated, bullshit concept.

If people help you kill a boss, give them a chance at loot.

If you don't want their help killing a boss, don't fucking invite them.

It's pretty simple.

Loot is a tool to kill the next boss, not a reward for defeating the current one.

[Zyranthian]

People who realize that if you're there when the boss dies, you deserve a chance at loot?

This is exactly the kind of bullshit that makes "loot council" a farce most of the time.

Thats ridiculous, how much you deserve loot isn't based on you being there for one fight, its based on your overall contribution to the raid over time. For example we have a WW monk who went and got himself pretty geared by running some heroic pugs before we got to regularly running heroics, and as such, he hasn't needed to bid on much gear for a few weeks now. If a piece of gear drops that he wants though, its basically his, no competition, because hes earnt it by showing up to every raid since we started raiding and hasn't taken very much gear. If a trial comes along that same night and kills a few bosses and expects to be on equal footing or equal priority for the same piece of gear, they'd get laughed out of the raid.

Thats the crux of why I prefer EPGP, it remembers things like this for you. You don't have to remember or track attendance records, you don't have to track who got what gear, you just check people's priorities and let the numbers do the hard work for you. People are rewarded with gear commensurate with the amount of effort they put in. You want the rewards, gotta do the work

Loot council is fallible, because humans are fallible, not necessarily on purpose or because they're corrupt but just because people are people, we forget stuff or miss stuff. I just prefer to let cold hard numbers do the work for me, math doesn't forget. Its the most pragmatic approach, and it has nothing to do with not trusting people or people not trusting you, its just a nice transparent way to track everything and distribute loot efficiently and above reproach. I've used loot council before too, and it worked on in small 10 man guilds composed of friends, but I've always found it never scaled up well to larger sized raids, or guilds that aren't entirely composed of friends. Even if you run it entirely fairly, and do everything right, people who are outside your circle of friends will still feel slighted when they get passed over for loot, and human error can still easily play a part if you honestly forget its someone's chance for loot and accidentally pass them over.

Not to mention, the time commitment involved just becomes unworkable, when you only raid a couple of hours a night, throwing away 15 - 20 minutes after every kill to work out the details needed to loot council a large raid is just insane.

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Oh, and I guess its worth mentioning, if you regular bring pugs or x-realm group finder people to your raids, EPGP is obviously not going to work. I'm talking purely guild runs.

[Zka]

Personal loot in the first few resets, then loot council.

[Deleted]

If you don't trust someone enough to give them loot, then don't fucking take them to your raids dude. With flex raiding and cross-realm the idea concept of a "trial" is an oudated, bullshit concept.

If people help you kill a boss, give them a chance at loot.

If you don't want their help killing a boss, don't fucking invite them.

It's pretty simple.

If a trial helps us kill a boss, we give them a chance to join the raid as a member. That's the point of trials. Their goal is to be accepted in the raid, not getting loot. If all they want is loot, they are probably not going to make member anyway, which means it would be even dumber to give them gear.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

If a trial helps us kill a boss, we give them a chance to join the raid as a member. That's the point of trials. Their goal is to be accepted in the raid, not getting loot. If all they want is loot, they are probably not going to make member anyway, which means it would be even dumber to give them gear.

This.

Loot is a tool to kill the next boss, not a reward for defeating the current one.

And this.

Any Trial who complains about not getting loot, will most likely not make it to Member anyway. Loot drama is EXTREMELY frowned upon.

[Pur1tas]

This.



And this.

Any Trial who complains about not getting loot, will most likely not make it to Member anyway. Loot drama is EXTREMELY frowned upon.

Totally agree with this one BUT the problem with people is that they are selfish and do not see the greater picture. This is also a huge issue in real life. People are selfish and until you change their mindset they will never be statisfied.

[Temp name]

We roll, and then the loot master checks who gets the biggest upgrade, and gives it to them.

[Ghostile]

Look at a system called DKR.
It comes basic DKP system with activity bonuses and makes loot distibution easier than DKP.

[Deleted]

Just MS > OS rolls and common sense (a thing so unknown and distant for alot of people).

[Radish Spirit]

Loot is a tool to kill the next boss, not a reward for defeating the current one.

And you plan to kick this person out of the raid before the next boss? No? Then give them a fucking chance at loot. This is just more of the same bullshit that makes all these systems farcical. If you're not racing for world Top 10 finishes, then this constant fear that you might give someone an item who won't be there to help you on the next progression boss is pointless drama. It's not MC anyone where you got 2 drops and every item was precious. Those days are gone. There's plenty of loot to go around and the loss of 1-2 items per week to people not getting invited back to raids is completely meaningless. Continue pretending you're fueling your totally awesome world class progression by funneling loot only to those you "trust" if it makes you feel more important, but it's just a song and dance. You would progress at the same (probably slightly above average but still mediocre) pace using MS > OS, and you would spend a lot less time worrying about things like this

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If a trial helps us kill a boss, we give them a chance to join the raid as a member. That's the point of trials. Their goal is to be accepted in the raid, not getting loot. If all they want is loot, they are probably not going to make member anyway, which means it would be even dumber to give them gear.

Why are those things mutually exclusive? There's no reason they can't trial to become a permanent member and also get an opportunity for loot. It should be both.

What if they decide your RL is an asshole and your guild sucks and they don't want to join? They still helped you kill the boss, they should still get a /roll on loot. Anything else is just evidence of the biased nature of these loot systems.

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Thats ridiculous, how much you deserve loot isn't based on you being there for one fight, its based on your overall contribution to the raid over time.

Why? You can't just say something and make it true.

If your raid is so progressed "overall" that you don't need help, fine. But you're inviting this person to help you kill a boss, so that's what they're doing. If they succeed in helping you get a kill, they contributed to THAT part of your progression and deserve to receive rewards for it.

If you're working on building a skyscraper and you run low on labor due to some people being out sick, you hire on some temporary contractors for the day - you still have to cut them a fucking paycheck at the end of the day. You can't be like "Sorry, dudes, you didn't contribute to the OVERALL skyscraper, so you're not getting paid today."

[l33t]

If you don't trust someone enough to give them loot, then don't fucking take them to your raids dude. With flex raiding and cross-realm the idea concept of a "trial" is an oudated, bullshit concept.

If people help you kill a boss, give them a chance at loot.

If you don't want their help killing a boss, don't fucking invite them.

It's pretty simple.

The whole point of trial is to test at a person, not to gear it. Gear is nothing but a tool to kill more bosses, and by giving gear to random person on trial you decrease your chances to kill more bosses. Not to mention that if trial person is starting a drama over loot, that person is not good for your raid for obvious reasons.

Also, any point system will deny trials any loot too.

[Zlebar]

Why? You can't just say something and make it true.

If your raid is so progressed "overall" that you don't need help, fine. But you're inviting this person to help you kill a boss, so that's what they're doing. If they succeed in helping you get a kill, they contributed to THAT part of your progression and deserve to receive rewards for it.

If you're working on building a skyscraper and you run low on labor due to some people being out sick, you hire on some temporary contractors for the day - you still have to cut them a fucking paycheck at the end of the day. You can't be like "Sorry, dudes, you didn't contribute to the OVERALL skyscraper, so you're not getting paid today."

The "loot" in your example is the experience gained by working on a skyscraper, not getting paid. The pay is killing the boss. We use loot, like experience in the workfield, it helps us be better in the future. This actually happens all the time with graphics work. Multiple people bring a piece and only the one selected gets paid. The people that don't get selected don't get paid. It's life get over it. While you are at it, get off your loot entitlement horse.

I've been raiding in progression guilds for most of my wow career. When I was a trial, I've seen loot DE'd for shards in the bank before it was given to me. I ACCEPTED it, because I wanted to raid with other great players. I didn't feel entitled because I helped them kill 1 boss. For me it was about the big picture, this is a group that has raided together and only members get loot. It has always been like that for just about any Top 5000 guild over the last 7 years of raiding.

You can't just say something and change a culture. Not everyone gets a trophy for showing up. You still get to say you killed the boss. Loot is not the end all be all. When you are with a good guild you know it, and you would be happy to sacrifice a weeks worth of drops because you know that they will take care of you in the future as a raider. If you want loot as a trial then find a shitty guild to raid with. This is THEIR raid and I completely understand the argument that they only want the loot from THEIR raid to go to THEIR members so that they can ensure that the raid progresses. Just because you can't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Freezer]

I think Kerchunk is confused over bringing in a PUG and a trial member.

If it's a pug, yes he gets a chance at loot, if he's a trial then no he doesn't unless a core raider does not need that item.

[l33t]

I think Kerchunk is confused over bringing in a PUG and a trial member.
If it's a pug, yes he gets a chance at loot, if he's a trial then no he doesn't unless a core raider does not need that item.

Yep, exactly this.

[Radish Spirit]

Yep, exactly this.

So you treat the people you're willing to invite to your guild WORSE than random strangers?

Yeah, that totally makes perfect sense.

You're right.

Silly me.

[Marxman]

There's plenty of loot to go around and the loss of 1-2 items per week to people not getting invited back to raids is completely meaningless.

But it's not meaningless. Upgrades matter. Maybe not to your casual normal mode guild, but in Mythic, upgrades MATTER.

There are 2 entirely separate viewpoints at work here. The "fairness" viewpoint and the "best for the guild" viewpoint.

If you just want loot to be fair, then use EPGP or suicide kings or the "roll and don't be a dick" rule. Your gear won't go to your best players, you'll lose gear to apps that don't stay or pugs or whatever. You're probably okay with that.

If you want loot to go to the people whom utilize it to the best interest of the guild's progression, then you use Loot Council and give it to your best players (mostly). Period.

[lavaalamp]

for an organized guild run, have the guild use epgp/dkp(depends)/lootcouncil. id stop using ms>os /roll it's very bad for a guilds progression. loot needs to prioritized, not aimlessly handed out like candy because someone got good rng rolls.