PvE Sub Rogue Rotation Question (Opening, Garrote and Hemo)

[Estocire]

I have a few questions about my rotation as other sources are not that good and have pointed me here.

I have been told Ambush > Garrote as my opener, so should I ever be using garrote in PvE?

During Find Weakness up-time should I prioritize backstab over rupture and hemo as long as one of them is up for the sanguinary veins buff? Should I just skip hemo during this time as long as rupture is up?

Thanks,

[Ryme]

Garrote as your opening move is optimal.
Skip hemo during FW (the dps difference is marginal, but it's there)
Rupture ahead of all the things, always - ideally it will be ticking highly before you dance to minimise the chance you need to refresh it during FW but if you do, you do.

[Imperviable]

I've been told not to garrote but I'm not sure how reliable that is. Most rogues seem to not take subterfuge either.

I usually open with premed snd pot -> ambush -> hemo -> sinister to 5 -> shadow reflection + rupture -> shadow dance + ambush. And continue.

[Kwaniah]

I'm not sure why people are using Garrote. It does a third of the damage of Ambush, for 15 less energy and 1 less combo point. And I'm not sure when Subterfuge actually gets better than Shadow Focus, but for me it sims as a 300 dps loss.

I usually open with premed snd pot -> ambush -> hemo -> sinister to 5 -> shadow reflection + rupture -> shadow dance + ambush. And continue.

[eijin]

I'm not sure why people are using Garrote. It does a third of the damage of Ambush, for 15 less energy and 1 less combo point. And I'm not sure when Subterfuge actually gets better than Shadow Focus, but for me it sims as a 300 dps loss.

garrote im going to play with, simcraft tells me to use it. I can only imagine it is to get the find weakness debuff up sooner, this is made MUCH more important now that we cannot get CP before the fight

subterfuge is undoubtedly better than shadow focus due to glyph of vanish. With glyph of vanish subterfuge refreshes itself, allowing you to stay "stealthed" for 6 total seconds every 90 second, rather than shadow focus being 1 GCD. pooling energy before hand you can get 2-3 ambushes off during this time, allowing for roughly 5 seconds higher of find weakness up time every 90 seconds.

[xquizite]

What I'm seeing from logs is premed - snd - prepot - ambush - ambush - rupture - dance -sr normal rotation refreshing snd after dance falls off ( 17 seconds in ?)

[Eazy]

I've been told not to garrote but I'm not sure how reliable that is. Most rogues seem to not take subterfuge either.

I usually open with premed snd pot -> ambush -> hemo -> sinister to 5 -> shadow reflection + rupture -> shadow dance + ambush. And continue.

Sinister Strike as Subtelty?

[Ryme]

I'm not sure why people are using Garrote. It does a third of the damage of Ambush, for 15 less energy and 1 less combo point. And I'm not sure when Subterfuge actually gets better than Shadow Focus, but for me it sims as a 300 dps loss.

More find weakness ambushes. Subterfuge is only ahead if you're using the vanish glyph.

[Kwaniah]

You mean the one ambush you use thats not under FW? Garrote still does less damage and you still lose out on a combo point. Considering FoK is better for two targets for that very reason, I don't get why people discount it for Garrote.

And yes, I sim'd with both. It was still a dps loss.

[Deleted]

What I'm seeing from logs is premed - snd - prepot - ambush - ambush - rupture - dance -sr normal rotation refreshing snd after dance falls off ( 17 seconds in ?)

This is pretty much exactly how I do it. I usually Pre-med 10 sec before pull because thats about when the CP's are about to drop of and I can make use of an additional premed during dance

[Deleted]

why we dont use rupture after sr and before hemo/garrote? i always though its a dps lose not to use rupture after sr.

[Deleted]

Garrote applies SV and FW which increases the dmg of your consecutive ambushes and autoattacks.

[Deleted]

yeah, i know. but the guys above me dont applying garrote and using rupture right before sr. im just asking why they dont open with garrote or using hemo in between and why rupturing right before sr and not right after.

sry for my bad english

[Ryme]

You mean the one ambush you use thats not under FW? Garrote still does less damage and you still lose out on a combo point. Considering FoK is better for two targets for that very reason, I don't get why people discount it for Garrote.

And yes, I sim'd with both. It was still a dps loss.

And the SV buff present from the very start, similar purpose to running the hemo glyph in case you run out of rupture and need it back before you can reapply. It's not worth a huge amount, but it's still the optimal path unless evidence contrary.

If it's below for you then it's below for you, perhaps your regen is too low to allow the extra ambush or the profile is set up incorrectly.

[Deleted]

So Ryme, what would the opener be, step by step?

[Ryme]

Premed SnD, Garrote -> rotation.

Using SR/Dance early even overlapping FW is usually fine since getting getting trinket procs inside a dance is worth more than delaying it. First rupture should come after you're you've popped SR.

[Deleted]

So Premed SnD, Garrote -> ambush -> ambush -> pool for dance -> SD+SR ->Rupture?

[Kwaniah]

And the SV buff present from the very start, similar purpose to running the hemo glyph in case you run out of rupture and need it back before you can reapply. It's not worth a huge amount, but it's still the optimal path unless evidence contrary.

If it's below for you then it's below for you, perhaps your regen is too low to allow the extra ambush or the profile is set up incorrectly.

I don't think it has anything to do with regen. The 665 profile runs something like 100 more haste than what I currently have, and it has subterfuge as a dps increase. I'd like to know what it is that makes it better. It could very well be more multistrike, as you get less SC proc chances with it.

Again, you lose damage using garrote over ambush. Despite not having FW or SV for that first ambush. Seriously. Test it yourself. And its also evident by the fact that the top 5 rogues on mythic butcher have ignored garrote. Garrote would have to do a substantially larger portion of damage than ambush just to justify the combo point loss anyways.

[Ryme]

I think you're vastly overvaluing that single combo point at the start. I have tested, it's ahead - 20% extra damage for those three seconds before you can apply your rupture plus the additional FW ambush plus the actual damage of garrotte itself (not insignificant, actually more efficient than a backstab) trumps the ambush - by a lot.

You can sit down with a pen and paper and prove it to yourself if you want.

Those top logs are irrelevant, mostly because they were likely posted during the HaT out of combat era, even if they weren't they not sufficient evidence to anything.

[Adoxe]

Not to sound harsh or anything but don't you guys think that the top players (such as Noxe) would be using Garrote and Subterfuge if they were actually useful? Seeing as how they don't, to me it's quite obvious that they're a giant waste of time and dps.