PvE Sub Rogue Rotation Question (Opening, Garrote and Hemo)

[Deleted]

May I ask how you check this?

At the 16 second mark, Rogue Power Bars (and ElvUI) shows 2 ruptures being on the target. Mine and the one the Clone just did by copying mine.
At 8 seconds, mine still has 8 seconds left and the clones (which came up as a 5 CP rupture on the timers) disappears as the clone dies.

The 2 rupture debuffs from the target also disappears.

[Jarvid]

That may be the problem, ingame it does LOOK like it stops, but advanced combat logging shows it as still ticking.
I'm not sure though, if its a problem with the log or the ingame information.

[Ryme]

The DoT continues but the basic combat log stops tracking it, it is still ticking though. One of the many annoying quirks of that talent.

[Jdance]

Jdance where are you to settle this? lol

I have absolutely no idea what the best opener is currently. There are better sub rogues than me out there that can answer more accurately.

I'm doing premed-snd-pot-ambush-ambush-arcane torrent-ambush-rupture-5pt SnD-Dance+coin

i'm 100% certain that's a terrible opener but everything's on farm now so I'm being careless

my logs are terrible lately, i'm just waiting for someone to tell me what to do

[Cocobutters]

Jdance where are you to settle this? lol

he died a few years back

[Deleted]

That may be the problem, ingame it does LOOK like it stops, but advanced combat logging shows it as still ticking.
I'm not sure though, if its a problem with the log or the ingame information.

The DoT continues but the basic combat log stops tracking it, it is still ticking though. One of the many annoying quirks of that talent.

But does it really tick?
Recount says no, in-game damage says no.
It's just my rupture ticks damage popping up on the screen, not double ticks as it should be.

So I'm confused right now.

[Jarvid]

As even Ryme says it ticks, it ticks!

[Mindscape]

Im no theorycraft god or anything, but I've done some personal testing on butcher mythic.

The result which gave me the highest damage personally(including personal errors and all that):
With a 25s pulltimer: 22s Premed -> 12s SND -> 2s Premed+SND -> Pot -> Garrote -> Ambush -> SR+Coin+Rupture on 4 or sometimes pool/wait for 5th comobpoint -> Dance..

With only 672 ilvl and far from ideal stats I've seen up to 110k openers.
I tried the other ones with double ambush instead of garrote and It didnt feel as good, nor did it do nearly as much damage. That could also be that I'm shit obviously.

Just thought I'd share my point on this, as I've been lurking the forums for waay too long without adding any input in return.

Tried to link log but I'm way to newb for that apparently =/

[Knj]

Im no theorycraft god or anything, but I've done some personal testing on butcher mythic.

The result which gave me the highest damage personally(including personal errors and all that):
With a 25s pulltimer: 22s Premed -> 12s SND -> 2s Premed+SND -> Pot -> Garrote -> Ambush -> SR+Coin+Rupture on 4 or sometimes pool/wait for 5th comobpoint -> Dance..

With only 672 ilvl and far from ideal stats I've seen up to 110k openers.
I tried the other ones with double ambush instead of garrote and It didnt feel as good, nor did it do nearly as much damage. That could also be that I'm shit obviously.

Just thought I'd share my point on this, as I've been lurking the forums for waay too long without adding any input in return.

Tried to link log but I'm way to newb for that apparently =/

This opener feels great but it really hard to convince people you need a 25s pool timer. Do you think it works with a 10s pool? Also, how big of difference is not casting SR separated from Dance?

Thanks.

[speedymonkey]

Wondering what is the best way to use vanish? (with glyph and subterfuge)

Should I ambush at the start continue normal rotation and then ambush at the end of the 2nd subterfuge?
or pool energy and combo points and go for as much damage as possible within both subterfuges?

I have tried pooling energy and a few combo points and doing Ambush, Evis, Ambush, Evis, Ambush. Feels like decent burst but i'm still not convinced.

Are these both wrong?

[Galufio]

Wondering what is the best way to use vanish? (with glyph and subterfuge)

Should I ambush at the start continue normal rotation and then ambush at the end of the 2nd subterfuge?
or pool energy and combo points and go for as much damage as possible within both subterfuges?

I have tried pooling energy and a few combo points and doing Ambush, Evis, Ambush, Evis, Ambush. Feels like decent burst but i'm still not convinced.

Are these both wrong?

No, it's ok. Basically you should fit as many ambushes as you can with last one being as much closer to the end of subterfuge as possible.
And pooling ~80 energy before vanish is optimal.

[shaithis]

Bump to front page. Constructive edit forthcoming, was going to ask y'all to take a look at H. Butcher logs from last night but apparently they never got uploaded. :|

[Estocire]

No, it's ok. Basically you should fit as many ambushes as you can with last one being as much closer to the end of subterfuge as possible.
And pooling ~80 energy before vanish is optimal.

Also ideally when you have Find weakness up, you should try and get your first Vanish ambush in just before find weakness ends to get that armor penetration, but timing this while pooling 80 energy at the same time is challenging. If you cant make it before find weakness ends pooling 80 energy so you can get at least 3 ambushes in per vanish is more important.

[Oggiva]

You want to fit in as much damage during Find Weakness as possible. Pooling during Find Weakness does not let you fit in as much damage as possible. Why do people keep saying that you should Ambush at the end of Find Weakness? It's neither intuitive nor correct.

[polyxena]

The only moment when pooling energy during FW is advisable is if you know you are only going to have enough energy for 1 more Ambush before you go back to using BS, then yeah by all means save it right before your Dance or Subterfuge go away.

[Galufio]

You want to fit in as much damage during Find Weakness as possible. Pooling during Find Weakness does not let you fit in as much damage as possible. Why do people keep saying that you should Ambush at the end of Find Weakness? It's neither intuitive nor correct.

It depends. For example, you have 3 sec of FW left, vanish off cd and energy for 1 backstab. If you use it, you'll end with no energy for that 'last-moment-of-FW-ambush', so it will hit weaker. If you pool, your vanish-ambush will hit stronger AND you'll be able to hit exacly the same backstab a little bit later in next FW (because energy needed for it never dissapeared).

[Oggiva]

It depends. For example, you have 3 sec of FW left, vanish off cd and energy for 1 backstab. If you use it, you'll end with no energy for that 'last-moment-of-FW-ambush', so it will hit weaker. If you pool, your vanish-ambush will hit stronger AND you'll be able to hit exacly the same backstab a little bit later in next FW (because energy needed for it never dissapeared).

No. The energy does not disappear, as you say, but if you hit that backstab, waited for a few seconds, and then used vanish you'd gain extra energy. So while you're not losing energy, you're not getting as much as you could either. That 'last-moment-of-FW-ambush' is something you don't want. It means you're wasting potential. That one single ambush you are getting in FW is easily made up for by the backstab(s) you could have had, and all the abilities you can use in the next FW if you just pool energy before you vanish.

Fact: if you use vanish at the end of FW so that you can ambush you'll get two ambushes in during subterfuge. If you save energy before hitting vanish you'll get three ambushes in during subterfuge. Two of which have FW up. And please don't say "but you can save that energy before the first vanish as well". That ambush is not more important than two backstabs and an eviscerate.

Siege of Orgrimmar is over. Assurance of Consequence is long gone. Stop living in the past.

[shaithis]

For fights where you lust on pull, you will want to have the FW uptimes overlap as much as possible for the first 40 seconds. I find that this is best achievable by stopping spam after refreshing rupture and SnD for the first time (using standard Premed SnD Garrote Ambush SR Rupture Dance opener), then Vanish Ambush when FW hits <1 seconds. For most fights, you may also consider using your first Prep right after this Vanish, especially if you burned Sprint on pull. This gives you FW coverage for all of lust. Note that you may also want to time your Prep Vanish with 6.1 alch trinket proc (0 sec > 55 sec > 110 sec > ... assuming same proc mechanic as the 620 trinket).